On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 17:04:29 -0700, "
wrote:

On Nov 1, 3:46 am, Skip Gundlach wrote:
This article has me rethinking my anchor management. Adding another
will be a storage challenge; only the fortress (which is knocked down,
in a bag, and fits nicely in the lazarette) and the danforths lend
themselves to stowage on the rail(s) - their currrent location(s).
However, when I lost my 65# CQR (see "Anchor's Away" - a report of a
sea trial last year) and was considering what to do for the
replacement, the Rocna, not only very expensive but at the entire
extent of the USA apart, a very high shipping charge, as well, and the
Spade, with the 120 being really the appropriate one for the boat,
being even worse, I eventually went to a like, but heavier, CQR.

I'm not sure I read this right Skip, the Rocna is definitely cheaper
than a CQR on a weight-for-weight basis, and far far better value on a
performance for $ basis.

The CQR 60lb from West Marine online at the moment is: "Sale $1,075.00
USD (Save $320.00 USD)"
The Rocna 25 (55lb) from West is $800.00 USD, the 33 (73lb) is $900.00
USD, and even the 15 or 20 Kg could be expected to out-perform the
60lb (27Kg) plow...

A lot of pricing comparisons these days inevitably come from looking
at cheap knock-offs, which flood the market from both domestic and
Asian manufacturers. It's a lowest common denominator thing. The
genuine CQR, genuine Bruce, Spade, and Rocna are fairly equal in one
sense: quality of build - and comparisons of value need to be
undertaken like-for-like. Their prices generally reflect the true cost
of a decent anchor. There are lots of things from a construction and
production point of view that could be done to make the Rocna cheaper,
but then it wouldn't be top quality!

If it's cheaper, it's cheaper for a reason... How much is your boat
worth?

Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about
anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode.

For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength
of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch
double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if
we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs.

Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade'
anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30
knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight
line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone
(Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave
shock is transmitted directly to the anchor.

So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why
does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches
the anchor to the boat?

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:displayed e-mail
address is a spam trap)

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 12:37:20 +0700, Bruce in Bangkok
wrote:

Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about
anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode.


Because the answers with rode questions are relatively clear cut, but
not so with anchors because there are many more options and many more
variables.

For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength
of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch
double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if
we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs.


Breaking strength is not always the issue, rather it is Safe Working
Load, abrasion resistance and shock absorption. Kevlar has low
stretch, poor abrasion resistance, and is also averse to splicing and
tight radius turns. Poor choice in my opinion.

Chain has poor (no) stretch but good abrasion resistance.

Nylon has good shock absorption and good strength but poor abrasion
resistance.

Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade'
anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30
knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight
line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone
(Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave
shock is transmitted directly to the anchor.

And that is correct. Catenary virtually disappears after the chain
load exceeds 1,000 to 2,000 pounds. That is about the force that we
generate when backing down with both engines at idle speed to verify
that the anchor is set (one advantage of a power boat with big props).

So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why
does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches
the anchor to the boat?

I don't think it gets ignored, it's just that the choices are limited
and more clear cut. My personal choice is 3/8ths HT chain (G40) which
has a safe working load (SWL) of about 5,500 lbs and a breaking
strength over 20,000 lbs. I combine that with a 7/8ths nylon snubber
which has about the same SWL and breaking strength. The nylon gives
shock absorption and can be chafe protected at the hawse pipe. It
also takes the strain off of the bow pulpit and lowers the angle of
pull. In a serious storm I rig a second nylon snubber line for
backup. Most of the serious cruisers that we see are using something
similar.

"Wayne.B" from the pulpit said:

On the other hand a good anchor is really cheap insurance, and worth
a
lot in peace of mind. You and Lydia are anchoring out much of the
time and saving a great deal in marina dockage as a benefit. On the
other hand you've already been hit with a couple of night time
squalls, and I can guarantee that you'll see more. It's part of the
game, happens all the time. Think about how much it will cost if
you
drag anchor and do serious damage to your boat, or worse yet, do
serious damage to someone elses boat. If you damage another boat in
some circumstances, you could lose the use of your own while the
litiation proceeds.

My advice, FWIW, is to get the best and biggest anchor that you can
handle. You'll never regret it, especially when that wind is
howling
outside and your home is swinging on the end of a small piece of
metal.

Amen brother, Amen

Find the biggest anchor you can afford, then get the next largest
size.

As much chain as you can carry and a powered windlass so you won't be
tempted to stay put when you shouldn't simply because resetting the
anchor is such a PITA because you don't have a powered windlass.

Lew

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote:

Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about
anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode.

For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working
strength
of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th
inch
double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if
we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs.

If you are going to use nylon rode in combination with chain, then the
nylon serves as a spring, stretching with increased load.

Basic reason to select 3-strand nylon of modest size to allow for this
stretch.
..
Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade'
anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30
knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight
line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone
(Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave
shock is transmitted directly to the anchor.

So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why
does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that
attaches
the anchor to the boat?


That's why snubbers exist when using all chain rode.

A hank of 3-strand nylon with a chain hook in one end and the other
secured around the mast will accomplish this function.

Lew

I don't dispute the cost nor the value. Just my hemorrhaging
pocketbook. If you'll ship me an equivalent to a Delta or CQR in the
60-75 (the ones on the bow, now) or so pound range for $500 (or, could
I buy it at West on my Port Card for that?), I'd mount it.

Try your Port Card, I can't speak for West sorry.

If you followed the thread where Bob was trying to eat my lunch, my
40k# boat with all that windage to boot, likely would need more than
the usually recommended anchors in a 45' hull. It's why I over sized
the Delta, and double over sized the CQR secondary. What would be the
recommended Rocna anchor?

Rocna 33. (73lb). Here's the complication: recommendations are very
conservative. That's intended to provide you with an anchor adequate
for use in all conditions. You can't compare to Lewmar guides etc.
I.e. 'forget the "go one size up" mantra, Rocna already did that for
you'. Calculations consider 50 knots wind in exposed surge and poor
holding, and anchors sized officially have seen their boats through
some pretty extreme weather, not least some mad nuts who didn't run
for port in the end-of-winter storm that came through New Zealand this
year. 80 knots... no problem...

So it's about value. The Rocna 25 or even 20 would out-perform either
of the two on your bow. The weight is not the defining property.

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about
anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode.

For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength
of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch
double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if
we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs.

Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade'
anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30
knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight
line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone
(Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave
shock is transmitted directly to the anchor.

So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why
does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches
the anchor to the boat?

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:displayed e-mail
address is a spam trap)

There's an excelent article discussing catenary, scope and chain/rode
ratios at http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/catenary.php


-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

For what its worth:

I bought a Rocna last year from Suncoast marine in Canada.
(http://www.suncoastmarine.ca/)

They shipped it to my marina and it arrived right on schedule. They
even tried to talk me down a size. I thought the cost was reasonable
and the service was good.

I only dropped the hook once since. Docking in a blow I wrapped my prop
and was consequently heading heading out the harbour unintentionally.
The anchor caught on some old fishing cable and I nearly ripped the
windlass out getting it free. In Newfoundland the locals commonly
dumped old fishing gear in the harbour. The previous year I drug once
and brought up all kinds of interesting crap: some 2" poly line and what
looked like an old sail except it had a printed pattern. So, for me and
my conditions, it is important that I have an anchor I can unfoul easily.

Unfortunately, no comment on holding power.

On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 05:50:42 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Bruce in Bangkok wrote in
:

Something I have always wondered about is that everyone talks about
anchors but nobody seems to talk about the anchor rode.

For example, 3/8" Grade 30 BBB galvanized chain has a working strength
of 2,650 Lbs., 25% of its breaking strength of 10,600 Lbs. 5/8th inch
double braid nylon rope has a tensile strength of 15,000 Lbs. and if
we go to Kevlar core double braid we are talking 22,000 Lbs.

Yes, I know - catenary..... but Alain Hylas (Inventor of the 'Spade'
anchor) say the opposite. He says that once the wind gets 20 - 30
knots (a gale force wind) the chain becomes effectively a straight
line, in other words for all practical purposes the catenary is gone
(Note: you can never pull the chain completely straight) and wave
shock is transmitted directly to the anchor.

So why do nearly all cruising yachts use an all chain rode? And, why
does everyone talk about anchors but ignore the "thing" that attaches
the anchor to the boat?

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:displayed e-mail
address is a spam trap)

There's an excelent article discussing catenary, scope and chain/rode
ratios at http://www.rocna.com/boat-anchors/catenary.php


-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Read it, about the same thing that Hylas says in excruciating detail.

I'm probably some what jaded with the discussion of anchors but the
N.Z. company sites seem, to me, to be advertizing written in the
format of a scientific test.






Bruce-in-Bangkok
(Note:displayed e-mail
address is a spam trap)

Hi, Craig, Bruce, Wayne, Lew, Bob, et. al.,

On chain and other rode, one of my bow anchors is all 5/16HT G40 chain
- but I use a nylon snubber. Practically speaking, so's the other,
but if I get past 125', the other 175' is 3/4" MegaBraid, nylon
stretchier than 3-strand. My storm bags have 30' of 3/8 BBB and the
rest the same MegaBraid. My spares lines (either for extending or
tying off) include several hundred feet of 3-strand 5/8, the original
rodes when we got the boat (the other parts being the above 3/8BBB).

On anchoring, we do, indeed, have a windlass - I use the Capstan for
my elevator rides to the top in a chair - and I have no problem
whatsoever in starting over if I'm not happy with my set. In this
short (only about 17 weeks so far, with waaaaay too many nights at a
dock or ball) trip, I've not only raised and lowered (about 5 times is
my limit before I go somewhere else) repetitively many times, I've
moved to another spot more than a half dozen times. I have very high
standards for what I consider "set" and, like another here, am very
fussy and time-consumptive in getting it down (I believe I've
described my modus in another thread). However, if I see *any*
current (in a slack water environment, of course) going past the bar-
tight chain when I'm backing, hard, I redo it...

On size of anchor, that's what I did - chose the best anchor at the
time, and went up one size (the 55 Delta and at the time, a 65 CQR
replaced my stolen 45 CQR - and the 45 lookalike [which maker I
forget] is now knocked down and spare in the lazarette); the second
CQR replacement, because it was only another 50 or so bux, I went to
*2* sizes up. As I commented when I started this thread, however,
because I'd not seen any testing that *I* thought was meaningful
(several PS reports over several years didn't do the same level of
testing, I didn't think), I hadn't considered the Rocna other than on
a superficial level (I had considered the Spade, but they don't have
an intermediate one between the 80 and 120, the likely size needed for
my boat). This article has me reconsidering.

However, having, now, a considerable investment in new anchors aboard,
this would be a duplicate purchase. After lots of research and
literal search, I was able to find inexpensive means of buying the
first ones. I don't think I'll have that luxury on the Rocna (and I'm
not interested in the knockoff). However, I'm very willing to be
proven wrong :{))

As I commented, should I do that, I'll have to rethink my anchor
management. I don't have a readily available spot to put the Delta,
the likely removal if I go to a Rocna. But, as it's the only one
where I had to pay "retail" (Port Supply), I'm not very happy about
the thought of giving it away - and since it's one of the proven
designs, I guess I'd want to have it aboard - I just don't know where.

L8R

Skip

PS Bob - I noted the no "t" :{)) Midway through the newest version of
HWS Coles/updater...

PPS Wayne, what size (the number Spade assigns) is a 120# with them?
Gotta be in the 5 or more hundred range?? See above about my choice
problems...

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
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"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
...

"Wayne.B" from the pulpit said:

On the other hand a good anchor is really cheap insurance, and worth
a
lot in peace of mind. You and Lydia are anchoring out much of the
time and saving a great deal in marina dockage as a benefit. On the
other hand you've already been hit with a couple of night time
squalls, and I can guarantee that you'll see more. It's part of the
game, happens all the time. Think about how much it will cost if
you
drag anchor and do serious damage to your boat, or worse yet, do
serious damage to someone elses boat. If you damage another boat in
some circumstances, you could lose the use of your own while the
litiation proceeds.

My advice, FWIW, is to get the best and biggest anchor that you can
handle. You'll never regret it, especially when that wind is
howling
outside and your home is swinging on the end of a small piece of
metal.

Amen brother, Amen

Find the biggest anchor you can afford, then get the next largest
size.

As much chain as you can carry and a powered windlass so you won't be
tempted to stay put when you shouldn't simply because resetting the
anchor is such a PITA because you don't have a powered windlass.

Lew



That's kinda how I think. I am picky, picky, picky about choosing where to
anchor and carefully setting my anchor. I do think, however, that no anchor
ever drug because it was too large! Often people seem proud of how tiny an
anchor they can get away with...and good on 'em (if they're downwind of me).
I like big anchors & lots of chain.

Glenn.