Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to
get the engine running.

10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega

Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind
the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise
went away or not, I wasn't there.

Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint
of starter trying to go.

I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside
the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making
a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but
clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell.

Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what
happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's
location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an
underlying problem.

Battery is 12.9 volts but we didn't have time to dig any deeper.

It looks like kind of an oddball set up. Manuals he downloaded from the
Internet for the engine and voltage regulator say that it has one of the
combination starter / generators which I assume is the long, dual belt, unit
on the side. There is also an alternator that looks alike an addition from
the style of the mounting frame.

--
Roger Long

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:22:42 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to
get the engine running.

10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega

Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind
the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise
went away or not, I wasn't there.

Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint
of starter trying to go.

I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside
the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making
a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but
clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell.

Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what
happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's
location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an
underlying problem.

A previous boat had a 2 cylinder Volvo (MD6A?) with a "dynastarter" -
combination starter and generator. If that is the arrangement on this
boat, I suspect that your "voltage regulator" also contains the
starting relay - If so, you will have to replace it with the correct
part from Volvo.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

"Peter Bennett" wrote in message
news.com...
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:22:42 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to
get the engine running.

10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega

Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind
the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise
went away or not, I wasn't there.

Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a
hint
of starter trying to go.

I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire
inside
the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from
making
a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but
clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell.

Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see
what
happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's
location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an
underlying problem.

A previous boat had a 2 cylinder Volvo (MD6A?) with a "dynastarter" -
combination starter and generator. If that is the arrangement on this
boat, I suspect that your "voltage regulator" also contains the
starting relay - If so, you will have to replace it with the correct
part from Volvo.

For an engine of that vintage, it would almost be cheaper to repower it.
When I had the MD-11, parts for the older Volvo models are made out of gold
and platinum plated.

Leanne

On Aug 15, 8:22 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to
get the engine running.

10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega

Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind
the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise
went away or not, I wasn't there.

Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint
of starter trying to go.

I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside
the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making
a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but
clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell.

Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what
happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's
location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an
underlying problem.

Battery is 12.9 volts but we didn't have time to dig any deeper.

It looks like kind of an oddball set up. Manuals he downloaded from the
Internet for the engine and voltage regulator say that it has one of the
combination starter / generators which I assume is the long, dual belt, unit
on the side. There is also an alternator that looks alike an addition from
the style of the mounting frame.

--
Roger Long

Thanks for your help Roger!
Chris

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:22:42 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to
get the engine running.

10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega

Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind
the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise
went away or not, I wasn't there.

Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint
of starter trying to go.

I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside
the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making
a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but
clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell.

Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what
happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's
location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an
underlying problem.

Battery is 12.9 volts but we didn't have time to dig any deeper.

It looks like kind of an oddball set up. Manuals he downloaded from the
Internet for the engine and voltage regulator say that it has one of the
combination starter / generators which I assume is the long, dual belt, unit
on the side. There is also an alternator that looks alike an addition from
the style of the mounting frame.

It sounds like some sort of "shade tree mechanical work" as the
voltage regulator, if that is what it is, is normally mounted on, or
close to, the alternator/Generator however if this is one of those
starter-generator things that Bukh used to install then all bets are
off.

If it were mine I'd try disconnecting all the 'lectrics except the big
cable to the starter and then "jump" the starter to see if I could get
it to run -- but only just run, not more then 20 - 30 seconds. Then
shut it down. If that works then the engine is all right and you'll
have to get someone to untangle the electrical system.

Since I don't know the existing condition of the electrical system my
suggestion about disconnecting everything to avoid short circuits.

Don't run the engine for any length of time until you have fitted some
sort of oil pressure indicator. Initially, perhaps, just a mechanical
gage screwed into the oil pressure sender hole - they are practically
all 1/8" pipe fittings.

My *guess* is that it originally had a starter-generator and an
alternator was added at some later date. and you've got a mess of an
electrical system.

Can't help much from here except to sympathize with y'all.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

"Roger Long" wrote:
Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today
trying to
get the engine running.

10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega
snip

An educated guess:

By the time you buy and WAIT to get parts from Volvo, it will probably
be more cost effective to repower with anything but Volvo.

Volvo is definitely not bashful about the prices they ask for
replacement parts.

Be prepared to wait till the gates of Hell freeze shut to get the
parts.

Might take a look at Beta.

Lew

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:33:36 +0700, wrote:

My *guess* is that it originally had a starter-generator and an
alternator was added at some later date. and you've got a mess of an
electrical system.

Probably right, an old Volvo "Dynastart" engine converted to use an
alternator.

The good news is that you now have a chance to do it right using
ordinary parts instead of the gold plated ones from Volvo Marine.

Use an ordinary solenoid, readily available from West marine, for the
starting circuit.

Ignore/disconnect the voltage generating portion of the Dynastart.

Get an external regulator for the alternator or replace it with a
modern, internally regulated, 3 terminal unit.

Chris,

I see you found my neighborhood cyber bar. Have a beer and keep an eye out
for flying pool cues and bottles.

The good news is that no one has jumped up to say that the problem must have
started somewhere else and a new regulator will just self distruct in the
same way. Could still happen but, if it was common, that's what we probably
would have heard.

The other good news is confirmation (recognizing that you have to take all
NG stuff with a grain of salt) that the generatior part of the dynastart was
not being used and the alternator is an addition. That means a separate
regulator and solonoid, readily available and not terribly expensive, are an
option.

What people are calling a starter solonoid isn't really. A solonoid pushes
the drive gear into place on some starters then disengages them so they
won't be turning and generating power when the engine is running. (Standard
starters must do this because there is no way to cut off power to the field
windings). When I was flying, an important step after starting was to turn
on power to the panel in special steps watching the ammeter to be sure the
starter (Bendix mechanical engagement / disengagement in this case) had not
remained engaged generating power that would fry the entire avionics stack
when the engine was brought up to speed.

The "solonoid" in this case is a simple, although large, relay that lets
battery power go directly through the large cables between the battery and
starter so you are not trying to start the engine with all the juice running
through the little starter switch. My engine doesn't have one so you can
sometimes get away without them at these small starting loads. Still a good
idea though. You can find these hanging on the rack at NAPA.

The "solonoid" / starter relay you buy will probably be physically identical
and from the same assembly line as the units I used to buy for the airplane
but at 1/6 the cost without the FAA tag. It should be mounted as close the
the starter as possible. One peculiarity of them is that, if the engine is
hard to start, and you run them too long, they will get hot and soften the
plastic liner of the electric coil and the plunger will stick. This may
leave them on and sending battery power to the starter while the engine
runs. The starter then becomes a generator and all hell breaks loose in the
electric system. Lots of pilots have died trying to land planes with smoke
filled cockpits because the FAA won't allow a safer alternative to be
installed. They also may not engage the starter next time or only engage
after you bang on them a while to shake the plunger loose. Buy two while
you are in NAPA.

You can't put a standard starter on your engine because there is no way to
engage and disengage it. However, since the Dynastart unit is designed to
be voltage regulated, you can disable it as a generator through that
circuitry and need to figure out how this was done. If this was done inside
the now fried regulator, a short that caused it to resume putting out power
while the engine was running is a prime suspect for your problems. If this
unit ever dies, you are going to be faced with the fact that only another
one from Volvo will work. I would remove it right now and have it
overhauled. If the brushes have worn down (remember, it runs all the time
the engine does), it would be an expensive thing to have missed. A
competent tech can also probably permanently disable the generator function
internally.

I would also remove the alternator and have it checked. Any car garage can
do this although they will probably send it out. If it is bad or about to
go bad, it would be a shame to have it undo all the hard work you are going
to put into getting this put back together.

Don't try to do this yourself until you have traced and tagged every wire
and produced a complet schematic of what you have now and how it will be
after modification. Few people could make up a system like this on the spot
in a rocking boat working in that tight space.

More good news: you are going to know a lot about boat starting and charging
circuits by the time this is done.

--
Roger Long

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:54:37 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Chris,

I see you found my neighborhood cyber bar. Have a beer and keep an eye out
for flying pool cues and bottles.

The good news is that no one has jumped up to say that the problem must have
started somewhere else and a new regulator will just self distruct in the
same way. Could still happen but, if it was common, that's what we probably
would have heard.

The other good news is confirmation (recognizing that you have to take all
NG stuff with a grain of salt) that the generatior part of the dynastart was
not being used and the alternator is an addition. That means a separate
regulator and solonoid, readily available and not terribly expensive, are an
option.

What people are calling a starter solonoid isn't really. A solonoid pushes
the drive gear into place on some starters then disengages them so they
won't be turning and generating power when the engine is running. (Standard
starters must do this because there is no way to cut off power to the field
windings). When I was flying, an important step after starting was to turn
on power to the panel in special steps watching the ammeter to be sure the
starter (Bendix mechanical engagement / disengagement in this case) had not
remained engaged generating power that would fry the entire avionics stack
when the engine was brought up to speed.


Ah Roger, you must be one of the younger generation who dosen't
remember "Bendex" starters where rotation of the starter drove a
pinion gear out a spiral shaft to engage the ring gear on the
flywheel. The solenoid was a proper solenoid (remote switch). After
the engine started and the starter button was released a coil spring
retracted the pinion gear. :-)



Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

wrote

Ah Roger, you must be one of the younger generation who dosen't
remember "Bendex" starters where rotation of the starter drove a
pinion gear out a spiral shaft to engage the ring gear on the
flywheel.

I sure do. I had just that arrangement on the airplane I took care of and
flew until a couple years ago. Remember, when you fly GA aircraft, you are
trapped in a WWII era technology time warp due to the stifling of innovation
and improvement by FAA paperwork.

I had to go out and lube that Bendix twice a month with silicone spray to be
sure it would disengage because it was right up in front where any rain
drove straight in as the plane flew.

--
Roger Long