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Voltage regulator advice needed
Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to
get the engine running. 10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise went away or not, I wasn't there. Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint of starter trying to go. I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell. Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an underlying problem. Battery is 12.9 volts but we didn't have time to dig any deeper. It looks like kind of an oddball set up. Manuals he downloaded from the Internet for the engine and voltage regulator say that it has one of the combination starter / generators which I assume is the long, dual belt, unit on the side. There is also an alternator that looks alike an addition from the style of the mounting frame. -- Roger Long |
Voltage regulator advice needed
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:22:42 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to get the engine running. 10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise went away or not, I wasn't there. Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint of starter trying to go. I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell. Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an underlying problem. A previous boat had a 2 cylinder Volvo (MD6A?) with a "dynastarter" - combination starter and generator. If that is the arrangement on this boat, I suspect that your "voltage regulator" also contains the starting relay - If so, you will have to replace it with the correct part from Volvo. -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
Voltage regulator advice needed
"Peter Bennett" wrote in message
news.com... On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:22:42 -0400, "Roger Long" wrote: Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to get the engine running. 10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise went away or not, I wasn't there. Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint of starter trying to go. I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell. Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an underlying problem. A previous boat had a 2 cylinder Volvo (MD6A?) with a "dynastarter" - combination starter and generator. If that is the arrangement on this boat, I suspect that your "voltage regulator" also contains the starting relay - If so, you will have to replace it with the correct part from Volvo. For an engine of that vintage, it would almost be cheaper to repower it. When I had the MD-11, parts for the older Volvo models are made out of gold and platinum plated. Leanne |
Voltage regulator advice needed
On Aug 15, 8:22 pm, "Roger Long" wrote:
Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to get the engine running. 10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise went away or not, I wasn't there. Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint of starter trying to go. I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell. Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an underlying problem. Battery is 12.9 volts but we didn't have time to dig any deeper. It looks like kind of an oddball set up. Manuals he downloaded from the Internet for the engine and voltage regulator say that it has one of the combination starter / generators which I assume is the long, dual belt, unit on the side. There is also an alternator that looks alike an addition from the style of the mounting frame. -- Roger Long Thanks for your help Roger! Chris |
Voltage regulator advice needed
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:22:42 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to get the engine running. 10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega Last time he started the engine, there was a buzzer like noise from behind the switch panel but the engine started and ran. Not sure if buzzer noise went away or not, I wasn't there. Next time, there was the same buzzer noise but nothing else, not even a hint of starter trying to go. I went to look at it today and found that there had been a small fire inside the elderly mechanical voltage regulator, not enough to keep it from making a nice warning buzzer sound as one of the toasted relays chattered but clearly enough to render it useless for anything except a doorbell. Question: Would it be foolish to just swap in another regulator and see what happens? Judging from the terminals, it's been fairly moist in it's location. Could it have just gone bad on its own or is there likely an underlying problem. Battery is 12.9 volts but we didn't have time to dig any deeper. It looks like kind of an oddball set up. Manuals he downloaded from the Internet for the engine and voltage regulator say that it has one of the combination starter / generators which I assume is the long, dual belt, unit on the side. There is also an alternator that looks alike an addition from the style of the mounting frame. It sounds like some sort of "shade tree mechanical work" as the voltage regulator, if that is what it is, is normally mounted on, or close to, the alternator/Generator however if this is one of those starter-generator things that Bukh used to install then all bets are off. If it were mine I'd try disconnecting all the 'lectrics except the big cable to the starter and then "jump" the starter to see if I could get it to run -- but only just run, not more then 20 - 30 seconds. Then shut it down. If that works then the engine is all right and you'll have to get someone to untangle the electrical system. Since I don't know the existing condition of the electrical system my suggestion about disconnecting everything to avoid short circuits. Don't run the engine for any length of time until you have fitted some sort of oil pressure indicator. Initially, perhaps, just a mechanical gage screwed into the oil pressure sender hole - they are practically all 1/8" pipe fittings. My *guess* is that it originally had a starter-generator and an alternator was added at some later date. and you've got a mess of an electrical system. Can't help much from here except to sympathize with y'all. Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Voltage regulator advice needed
"Roger Long" wrote:
Please help me advise a friend whose boat I was looking at today trying to get the engine running. 10 HP 2 cylinder Volvo diesel in an Albin Vega snip An educated guess: By the time you buy and WAIT to get parts from Volvo, it will probably be more cost effective to repower with anything but Volvo. Volvo is definitely not bashful about the prices they ask for replacement parts. Be prepared to wait till the gates of Hell freeze shut to get the parts. Might take a look at Beta. Lew |
Voltage regulator advice needed
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Voltage regulator advice needed
Chris,
I see you found my neighborhood cyber bar. Have a beer and keep an eye out for flying pool cues and bottles. The good news is that no one has jumped up to say that the problem must have started somewhere else and a new regulator will just self distruct in the same way. Could still happen but, if it was common, that's what we probably would have heard. The other good news is confirmation (recognizing that you have to take all NG stuff with a grain of salt) that the generatior part of the dynastart was not being used and the alternator is an addition. That means a separate regulator and solonoid, readily available and not terribly expensive, are an option. What people are calling a starter solonoid isn't really. A solonoid pushes the drive gear into place on some starters then disengages them so they won't be turning and generating power when the engine is running. (Standard starters must do this because there is no way to cut off power to the field windings). When I was flying, an important step after starting was to turn on power to the panel in special steps watching the ammeter to be sure the starter (Bendix mechanical engagement / disengagement in this case) had not remained engaged generating power that would fry the entire avionics stack when the engine was brought up to speed. The "solonoid" in this case is a simple, although large, relay that lets battery power go directly through the large cables between the battery and starter so you are not trying to start the engine with all the juice running through the little starter switch. My engine doesn't have one so you can sometimes get away without them at these small starting loads. Still a good idea though. You can find these hanging on the rack at NAPA. The "solonoid" / starter relay you buy will probably be physically identical and from the same assembly line as the units I used to buy for the airplane but at 1/6 the cost without the FAA tag. It should be mounted as close the the starter as possible. One peculiarity of them is that, if the engine is hard to start, and you run them too long, they will get hot and soften the plastic liner of the electric coil and the plunger will stick. This may leave them on and sending battery power to the starter while the engine runs. The starter then becomes a generator and all hell breaks loose in the electric system. Lots of pilots have died trying to land planes with smoke filled cockpits because the FAA won't allow a safer alternative to be installed. They also may not engage the starter next time or only engage after you bang on them a while to shake the plunger loose. Buy two while you are in NAPA. You can't put a standard starter on your engine because there is no way to engage and disengage it. However, since the Dynastart unit is designed to be voltage regulated, you can disable it as a generator through that circuitry and need to figure out how this was done. If this was done inside the now fried regulator, a short that caused it to resume putting out power while the engine was running is a prime suspect for your problems. If this unit ever dies, you are going to be faced with the fact that only another one from Volvo will work. I would remove it right now and have it overhauled. If the brushes have worn down (remember, it runs all the time the engine does), it would be an expensive thing to have missed. A competent tech can also probably permanently disable the generator function internally. I would also remove the alternator and have it checked. Any car garage can do this although they will probably send it out. If it is bad or about to go bad, it would be a shame to have it undo all the hard work you are going to put into getting this put back together. Don't try to do this yourself until you have traced and tagged every wire and produced a complet schematic of what you have now and how it will be after modification. Few people could make up a system like this on the spot in a rocking boat working in that tight space. More good news: you are going to know a lot about boat starting and charging circuits by the time this is done. -- Roger Long |
Voltage regulator advice needed
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:54:37 -0400, "Roger Long"
wrote: Chris, I see you found my neighborhood cyber bar. Have a beer and keep an eye out for flying pool cues and bottles. The good news is that no one has jumped up to say that the problem must have started somewhere else and a new regulator will just self distruct in the same way. Could still happen but, if it was common, that's what we probably would have heard. The other good news is confirmation (recognizing that you have to take all NG stuff with a grain of salt) that the generatior part of the dynastart was not being used and the alternator is an addition. That means a separate regulator and solonoid, readily available and not terribly expensive, are an option. What people are calling a starter solonoid isn't really. A solonoid pushes the drive gear into place on some starters then disengages them so they won't be turning and generating power when the engine is running. (Standard starters must do this because there is no way to cut off power to the field windings). When I was flying, an important step after starting was to turn on power to the panel in special steps watching the ammeter to be sure the starter (Bendix mechanical engagement / disengagement in this case) had not remained engaged generating power that would fry the entire avionics stack when the engine was brought up to speed. Ah Roger, you must be one of the younger generation who dosen't remember "Bendex" starters where rotation of the starter drove a pinion gear out a spiral shaft to engage the ring gear on the flywheel. The solenoid was a proper solenoid (remote switch). After the engine started and the starter button was released a coil spring retracted the pinion gear. :-) Bruce in Bangkok (brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom) |
Voltage regulator advice needed
wrote Ah Roger, you must be one of the younger generation who dosen't remember "Bendex" starters where rotation of the starter drove a pinion gear out a spiral shaft to engage the ring gear on the flywheel. I sure do. I had just that arrangement on the airplane I took care of and flew until a couple years ago. Remember, when you fly GA aircraft, you are trapped in a WWII era technology time warp due to the stifling of innovation and improvement by FAA paperwork. I had to go out and lube that Bendix twice a month with silicone spray to be sure it would disengage because it was right up in front where any rain drove straight in as the plane flew. -- Roger Long |
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