Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:15:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do
that first because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time
involves many trips up the mast.



Yeahbut...

If you are going to replace them all anyway, why not drop the mast.
Now we can get to the mast electrical wiring too.

And inspect and replace any fittings that look iffy...

And all the nuts, bolts, screws, etc.

Seems a quicker and easier way to go.

IF there is a crane handy...

wrote:


The statement is simply an "out" for the surveyor. It means that he
didn't inspect the rigging.

Having said that, have a good friend who is a Lloyd's Inspector and
does frequent inspection of VLCC, etc., usually to determine what
repairs will be required to have the vessel pass class inspection,
whether for sale or modification, repair, etc..

He inspects the hull, tanks, piping and valves, tank venting, steering
gear, in short the mechanical portion of the ship. He does not inspect
the electronics or radios.

So, it is not unusual, in the commercial world, for a surveyor to
inspect only certain portions of a vessel. However -- when you
contract with Lloyd's for a survey you will sign a contract that
specify in excruciating detail exactly what they will inspect for.

To answer you question though, yes, if the boat is close to ten years
old I would have the rigging inspected.

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)


27 years old.
(and we so dreaded 1984 coming! Has it been that long already?)

I think it just needs to be replaced.

Say, is thee a Lloyd's of Texas???

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:ZWNvi.17489$SV4.5430@trnddc08...
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

It's fairly normal. Most surveyors don't truly inspect the rigging at the
top or at the spreaders. If the rigging is over 10 yrs old or is showing
signs, then it's time to replace it. You could hire someone to climb and
inspect, but a lot can be seen with binoculars. It shouldn't be *that*
expensive, but neither is it cheap. My rigging was fine, but had the
forestay replaced since I was adding a furler anyway. I also had the
lifelines replaced at the same time. They were ready.


And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard






--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:xnQvi.2410$jy5.679@trnddc07...
Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:15:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do that first
because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time involves many trips
up the mast.



Yeahbut...

If you are going to replace them all anyway, why not drop the mast.
Now we can get to the mast electrical wiring too.

And inspect and replace any fittings that look iffy...

And all the nuts, bolts, screws, etc.

Seems a quicker and easier way to go.

IF there is a crane handy...



Sure.. it's only money. :-) Most things will be obvious to someone who
regularly does rigging work, and you can probably find such a person to go
aloft.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Capt. JG wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:ZWNvi.17489$SV4.5430@trnddc08...

So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed
attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?


It's fairly normal. Most surveyors don't truly inspect the rigging at the
top or at the spreaders. If the rigging is over 10 yrs old or is showing
signs, then it's time to replace it. You could hire someone to climb and
inspect, but a lot can be seen with binoculars. It shouldn't be *that*
expensive, but neither is it cheap. My rigging was fine, but had the
forestay replaced since I was adding a furler anyway. I also had the
lifelines replaced at the same time. They were ready.



Thanks, Cap'n

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 03:42:13 GMT, cavelamb himself
wrote:

wrote:


The statement is simply an "out" for the surveyor. It means that he
didn't inspect the rigging.

Having said that, have a good friend who is a Lloyd's Inspector and
does frequent inspection of VLCC, etc., usually to determine what
repairs will be required to have the vessel pass class inspection,
whether for sale or modification, repair, etc..

He inspects the hull, tanks, piping and valves, tank venting, steering
gear, in short the mechanical portion of the ship. He does not inspect
the electronics or radios.

So, it is not unusual, in the commercial world, for a surveyor to
inspect only certain portions of a vessel. However -- when you
contract with Lloyd's for a survey you will sign a contract that
specify in excruciating detail exactly what they will inspect for.

To answer you question though, yes, if the boat is close to ten years
old I would have the rigging inspected.

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)


27 years old.
(and we so dreaded 1984 coming! Has it been that long already?)

I think it just needs to be replaced.

Say, is thee a Lloyd's of Texas???

No the Lloyd's I was referring to was Lloyd's of London,, in this case
a ship classification and certifying company.

It seems like the general advise is to change stainless rigging every
ten years but I'm inclined to believe that is more of a local legend
then anything else. I have personally seen USAF aircraft with current
inspections that had brass safety wire on the turnbuckles, a practice
that had been abandoned by the Air Force more then twenty years ago.,
so it is possible that the wire itself is not the problem.

If I were worried about the rigging then I'd either hire a reputable
guy to inspect it or at the very least get some good cleaner and the
strongest magnifying glass you can find and clean the lower terminals
and examine them. Usually the lower terminals tend to fail before
uppers as they are usually pretty well soaked with seawater most of
the time. If you see any crack in the lower terminals, no matter how
small, it is time to replace the rigging.

My personal advise would be to pull the mast and lay it down as there
is more to rigging then just cables. I've seen mast head fittings
cracked, through bolts holding the lower stay plates ready to break, a
welded on spinnaker boom lift bracket cracked and ready to fall off.

Also, while the mast is down you can check the internal wiring and
make sure that is in good shape and that the conduit is still riveted
in .

Re mast steps recommended by another poster. If you can afford the
kind that fold into the mast then by all means install them but if you
are contemplating the big triangular stirrups that are riveted to the
outside of the mast then consider -- you will need to rig some sort of
lacing to prevent lines from getting wrapped around the steps -- they
are easy to run up and down but a real pain in the neck. I know, I've
got 'em on my boat.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeATgmailDOTcom)

Why don't you just call your surveyor and ask him?

You must realize of course, that if this is a survey the seller gave
you its worth about as much as him saying "My brother-in-law thinks
its a real good boat." There are two types of surveys, a proper
survey where the buyer wants to find every little thing that has gone
bad, will go bad, and might go bad in the boat; and an insurance
survey which says that the boat probably won't sink or blow up in the
next 2 years, and isn't concerned with the all the minor things that
are falling off (i.e. not covered by insurance). The insurance
surveyor is often found by the seller's broker when the buyer realizes
he'll need the survey for insurance. He is a "house surveyor" and
wouldn't remain one long if he convinced buyers not to buy. On top of
that, in most places you don't need a license or certification to call
yourself a surveyor.

Before you seriously look at boats you should find a surveyor that
you're comfortable with, and have a discussion about the type of boat
you're looking for, and what he recommends as conditions for the
survey. For instance, if the boat is on the hard, can he do a proper
engine survey? Might he require invasive tests that need the seller's
permission?




* cavelamb himself wrote, On 8/12/2007 8:52 PM:
So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".

But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

Richard




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

cavelamb himself wrote:

So I'm reading the survey for one of the boats that I'm looking at.
It's a Catalina 36 = 1984 model

Moored in fresh water now, but has been in salt water.

Under Surveyer's Recommendations are a list of items that needed attention.

It's not a long list but there is one item (C rated) that I'm
kinda concerned about.

It says "All items aloft (spars, rigging, fittings, hardware, etc)
should be visually inspected for condition by a qualified/experienced
yacht rigger or equivelent".

Is this normal for a professional survey?

Yes but it is more of a disclaimer than anything.

When we had our boat surveyed before purchase, we got Peter Hartoff
who several people recommended as the best around here. He did
everything except the rigging. He did an in water survey first and
then had us haul the boat, and did the hull, and then he took the boat
out for a sea trial. We had told him what use we intended to make of
the boat, so his survey was based on that.

When the marina wanted proof of insurance several years later, and the
insurance company wanted a survey first, we got another guy, and he
used the previous survey to check that we'd done the A list things and
the B list things and basically looked to see that nothing else had
gone terribly long in the interval. He did the survey with the boat
in the water - we didn't haul it for him.

And, like everything else on the list it it maked off, "done".
But I don't yet know who the equivelent was.

Who marked it 'done'. The only way to find out is to ask. Although
they may not tell you.

So I'm a little curious here.

Do I need to hire a professional rigger to check the rigging in a
situation like this?

I mean, replacing all the standing rigging on any boat is not a trivial
matter.

Now I don't necessarily have to have new rigging on the boat I buy, but
if it needs to be replaced I need to know up front. And adjust the price
as appropriate...

I'm getting from your question that you didn't order this survey -
that it was a previous survey done by the current or previous owner
(??) IMHO for most major purchases you should not rely on a previous
survey, because you don't know what purpose the survey was done for -
was it for insurance like our second survey, or was it for a previous
sale that fell through, or what.

If this IS your own survey, then you need to ask the surveyor what was
'done'.

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
news:xnQvi.2410$jy5.679@trnddc07...
Wayne.B wrote:

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:15:26 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


But, if it doesn't have mast steps installed you'll have to do that
first because replacing standing rigging one wire at a time involves
many trips up the mast.



Yeahbut...

If you are going to replace them all anyway, why not drop the mast.
Now we can get to the mast electrical wiring too.

And inspect and replace any fittings that look iffy...

And all the nuts, bolts, screws, etc.

Seems a quicker and easier way to go.

IF there is a crane handy...


Cranes are expensive. And how long are you going to have to sit in the
yard paying out the wazoo daily while you're working on the rigging. You
can do your own rigging while anchored or moored and it costs nothing
but your time and labor. Not only that but it's safer. At any rate, mast
steps are necessary.

But, if you desire to re-do the internal wiring, and possibly sheaves
and running rigging and standing rigging all at the same time, lowering
the mast might be the way to go.

Any cruising boat should have mast steps. Unlike what Wayne B said about
them, the right kind of steps don't foul halyards and don't rip sails.
Get the folding steps. They are the best. You can install them yourself
with simple tools one at a times using the one you just installed to
stand on to install the next one. When cruising you need a way to get to
the masthead for inspections and repairs and you need to go to the
masthead frequently. It's foolish to have no way to inspect, repair,
install systems at the masthead.

http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=81324F

Wilbur Hubbard

wrote in message
...

Re mast steps recommended by another poster. If you can afford the
kind that fold into the mast then by all means install them but if you
are contemplating the big triangular stirrups that are riveted to the
outside of the mast then consider -- you will need to rig some sort of
lacing to prevent lines from getting wrapped around the steps -- they
are easy to run up and down but a real pain in the neck. I know, I've
got 'em on my boat.


http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=81324F

These are what REAL cruising sailors use these days. They are what Capt.
Neal has on his fine blue water cruiser so they must be the best. . .

Wilbur Hubbard