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Old April 16th 07, 09:27 AM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico

On Apr 15, 8:10 pm, sherwindu wrote:
I'm not happy about people getting into trouble, but it does seem like
vindication
for all the opposition I got when I originally brought up this subject months
ago.


I don't recall that thread. Was it here in RBC? Were people arguing
that multihulls don't or can't capsize? I have extensive offshore
experience in my catamaran and in many monohulls and am reasonably
well tuned into the multihull cruising community and I think that
multihulls can be excellent and relatively safe offshore boats.
However, there is no doubt that they can be flipped and are not self-
righting.

-- Tom.


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Old April 16th 07, 02:46 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico

On Apr 15, 11:30 pm, "Chuck Gould" wrote:
On Apr 15, 7:20?pm, "Joe" wrote:

On Apr 15, 6:34 pm, "NE Sailboat" wrote:


I took a look at the video .. it wasn't even rough water. ?The skipper is
standing on the underside of the boat.


Sheeeeze NE sailboat.


Ever hear of a willawall? Microbursts?


Joe


Where do you hail from, Joe?

Out west we call a sudden onset storm a "williwaw", not a willawall.
Words have a way of being used differently around the country.
"Willawall" isn't such a bad variation- running into one can be like
hitting a wall and I wonder if that's behind your local usage?


I'm just north of Galveston, sail the Gulf of Mexico mostly. Williwaw
is a term I've heard from an engineer from Michigan who wroked for me
on the supply boats, not a term used here much. I figured it might be
a term someone from the NE would understand. Here in the gulf we call
them fronts, microburst's and t storms.

We were pounded hard last June by a micro storm.
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/276...63212926qxyWne

Here is looking back at it:
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/269...63212926gtlLgt

It put the rail underwater, and blew the hatch off the top of my
wheelhouse:
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/269...63212926AtNrvq

Joe


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Old April 16th 07, 03:35 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
* Wayne.B wrote, On 4/15/2007 5:25 PM:
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 15:04:11 +0000, Larry wrote:

He'd have been home by now if he'd had a SELF RIGHTING
MONOHULL....(c;


Sounds about right to me. Those cats don't always land on their feet
although there is a lot of denial about that. :-)

I have to admit I've been one of the deniers, and the recent spate of
capsizes has been distressing. But I'm not sure why you have the
smiley - are you happy whenever there is a catamaran accident? Should
I use a smiley whenever a monohull goes to the bottom?

This is one of the very few I've heard of that was a real cruising cat
be cruised, not a racer or a delivery incident. At 35 feet its a bit
small, but since it had twin diesels it wasn't a lightweight. I'll be
curious to hear the story - My guess is that this was not a major
storm, but a case of carrying full sail when a strong squall hit.


I've been telling you for years about how unstable and dangerous cats
are for ocean cruising by you refuse to get your head out of your ass
and listen to me. You have this ignorant pre-concieved notion that
multis are safe and they are not. One hears capsize after capsize if one
listens. You don't listen because you don't want to hear. You don't want
to believe you have made a stupid choice of boats. You don't want to
believe you put yourself and your whole family in danger by your
ignorant choice. Here I am tryint to save your live and the lives of
your loved ones and your persist in your stupid head in the sand stance.

Wilbur Hubbard




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Old April 16th 07, 04:57 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 4/16/2007 10:35 AM:

"Jeff" wrote in message

....
I have to admit I've been one of the deniers, and the recent spate of
capsizes has been distressing. But I'm not sure why you have the
smiley - are you happy whenever there is a catamaran accident? Should
I use a smiley whenever a monohull goes to the bottom?

This is one of the very few I've heard of that was a real cruising cat
be cruised, not a racer or a delivery incident. At 35 feet its a bit
small, but since it had twin diesels it wasn't a lightweight. I'll be
curious to hear the story - My guess is that this was not a major
storm, but a case of carrying full sail when a strong squall hit.


I've been telling you for years about how unstable and dangerous cats
are for ocean cruising by you refuse to get your head out of your ass
and listen to me. You have this ignorant pre-concieved notion that
multis are safe and they are not. One hears capsize after capsize if one
listens. You don't listen because you don't want to hear.


Actually I've rather obsessively searched for catamaran capsizes for
many years. There have been some, but very few. As I've posted a
number of times, there have been almost none that are cruising boats
over 35 feet, actually being cruised, not delivered. In point of
fact, none of the recent incidents fit these criteria.

You don't want
to believe you have made a stupid choice of boats.


That's a ridiculous statement, given that I rarely am more then a few
hours away from safe refuge. I've never made any claim that my boat
is suitable for an North Atlantic crossing, although sisterships have
done it.

You don't want to
believe you put yourself and your whole family in danger by your
ignorant choice. Here I am tryint to save your live and the lives of
your loved ones and your persist in your stupid head in the sand stance.


Pretty pathetic, Neal. You're just showing your ignorance. You've
never actually pointed out a capsize in conditions remotely resembling
those that I take my family out in.

You're the one ignoring the reality: the other "disaster" thread here
concerns a monohull that sank without a trace because it got too close
to a ferry. And then there was Jim Gray disappearing in his C&C. And
a few weeks ago a man went missing from his boat in LIS. All of these
were within a few miles of shore. Yes, there is a tiny chance that a
freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below
making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for
more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that
plague monohulls.
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Old April 16th 07, 05:43 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico

In article .com,
wrote:
On Apr 15, 8:10 pm, sherwindu wrote:
I'm not happy about people getting into trouble, but it does seem like
vindication
for all the opposition I got when I originally brought up this subject months
ago.


I don't recall that thread. Was it here in RBC? Were people arguing
that multihulls don't or can't capsize? I have extensive offshore
experience in my catamaran and in many monohulls and am reasonably
well tuned into the multihull cruising community and I think that
multihulls can be excellent and relatively safe offshore boats.
However, there is no doubt that they can be flipped and are not self-
righting.


I'm sure it'll continue the squabbling, but you're right. They don't
self-right. They're actually more stable flipped, but they also are,
in my view, much safer over all, since you'll be less fatigued if you
have to deal with unfavorable conditions, and that will prevent
stupid-user accidents. These sort are what typically gets people in
trouble.

I've sailed both in- and off-shore, and I own a mono, but I'd rather
have a cruising cat for distance trips. Monos are great fun and a joy
to sail, but I don't living on a heel.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com




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Old April 16th 07, 05:55 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf ofMexico

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:46:08 -0700, Joe wrote:


I'm just north of Galveston, sail the Gulf of Mexico mostly. Williwaw is
a term I've heard from an engineer from Michigan who wroked for me on
the supply boats, not a term used here much. I figured it might be a
term someone from the NE would understand. Here in the gulf we call them
fronts, microburst's and t storms.


Different phenomenon. A true williwaw is associated with mountains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind
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Old April 16th 07, 06:09 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Yes, there is a tiny chance that a
freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below
making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for
more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that
plague monohulls.


I'm actually more or less agnostic on the multi vs mono argument but
certain facts and observations are hard to escape, and I've had more
than 35 years experience cruising and racing under sail. One thing
that sticks out is how many times I've been knocked flat or nearly so
in keel boat monohulls. These were not instances of carelessness or
inattention either. Typically they have resulted from sudden clear
air puffs of much higher velocity, and accompanied by a large
directional shift at the same time. They can be very unpredictable,
and very difficult for the crew and helmsman to react in time to avert
a knockdown. I really don't know any way of avoiding them other than
not sailing at all in gusty conditions. A mono will recover very
quickly from that sort of rough treatment, usually within seconds, and
typically with no harm done.

Other than my small Hobie I've never been on a cat when that sort of
thing has happened. The Hobie was quite predictable however, it would
go over just about every time.

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Old April 16th 07, 06:33 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
Joe Joe is offline
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico

On Apr 16, 11:55 am, thunder wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:46:08 -0700, Joe wrote:
I'm just north of Galveston, sail the Gulf of Mexico mostly. Williwaw is
a term I've heard from an engineer from Michigan who wroked for me on
the supply boats, not a term used here much. I figured it might be a
term someone from the NE would understand. Here in the gulf we call them
fronts, microburst's and t storms.


Different phenomenon. A true williwaw is associated with mountains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind


Got ya, thanks.

Also found this
Location: Strait of Magellan and Aleutian Islands

Williwaw is the name for a sudden violent, cold, katabatic gust of
wind descending from a mountainous coast of high latitudes to the sea
and are most common n the Strait of Magellan or the Aleutian Islands.

The term williwaw is of Native American origin which refers to a
strong erratic gust of wind and the effects of a williwaw gust are a
constant danger for any vessel trying to sail around Cape Horn:

Then there are those famous katabatic winds or "williwaws," which can
wreak havoc in short order. If you feel sudden rises in temperature -
beware. This is an air parcel coming down from the mountains and is in
compression. In its most violent manifestation ( a williwaw) it can
dump over high land spilling out onto the water at well over 120 knots
whipping up the water into a white frenzy.

They are also known as the Alskan winds. However, similar gusts with
many local names do occur at many high latitude coasts from Siberia to
Patagonia.

Joe

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Old April 16th 07, 08:09 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico

* Wayne.B wrote, On 4/16/2007 1:09 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Yes, there is a tiny chance that a
freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below
making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for
more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that
plague monohulls.


I'm actually more or less agnostic on the multi vs mono argument but
certain facts and observations are hard to escape, and I've had more
than 35 years experience cruising and racing under sail. One thing
that sticks out is how many times I've been knocked flat or nearly so
in keel boat monohulls. These were not instances of carelessness or
inattention either. Typically they have resulted from sudden clear
air puffs of much higher velocity, and accompanied by a large
directional shift at the same time. They can be very unpredictable,
and very difficult for the crew and helmsman to react in time to avert
a knockdown. I really don't know any way of avoiding them other than
not sailing at all in gusty conditions. A mono will recover very
quickly from that sort of rough treatment, usually within seconds, and
typically with no harm done.

Other than my small Hobie I've never been on a cat when that sort of
thing has happened. The Hobie was quite predictable however, it would
go over just about every time.


My final decision to buy my cat was on a gusty day on the Chesapeake -
winds were 15-20, gusting up bit past that. We were beating at about
50 degrees true, slowing catching a Hunter. A gust hit us and the
Hunter went rail down, stalling out, but we just accelerated and went
by. Then the salesman told me to bear off a bit more, and the speed
shot up to 10 knots and I was hooked!

There is no doubt that in more extreme situations a catamaran can be
at risk. My boat (and several others I know of) are designed such
that full sail can generate enough force to tip her over in 45 knots.
Of course, carrying full sail in 45 knots is normally a no-no, so
the key is to anticipate such situations and not get caught.

Personally, I deliberately undersized my sails - stackpack on main,
high cut 120 jib instead of the standard 130. I reef early and often,
and don't hesitate to run the engine if it seems more prudent. Others
take the opposite approach, using a tall rig with a large headsail to
optimize performance in lighter air, but my thinking is that this only
moves the need for powering a couple of knots of wind lower, and
complicates things when it blows up.
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Old April 16th 07, 08:14 PM posted to rec.boats,rec.boats.cruising
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Default Video footage - USCG assists capsized catamaran in Gulf of Mexico

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 11:57:51 -0400, Jeff wrote:



You're the one ignoring the reality: the other "disaster" thread here
concerns a monohull that sank without a trace because it got too close
to a ferry. And then there was Jim Gray disappearing in his C&C. And
a few weeks ago a man went missing from his boat in LIS. All of these
were within a few miles of shore. Yes, there is a tiny chance that a
freak squall would hit while I'm carrying full sail and I'm down below
making coffee. (Doubtful, since I don't actually leave the helm for
more than a few seconds.) But there are other higher risks that
plague monohulls.


The facts of this incident aren't in yet. It's possible the boat
didn't get hit by a gust, but plowed into a wave and flipped.
If so, that puts a different light on it.
The boat was a 1996 FOUNTAINE PAJOT, 35'
I don't know the designed stability of the boat or the load and
weather circumstance of the incident.
Until the capt'n reveals what happened, it's a bit early to say the
boat capsized.
This site is interesting for those seeking info on catamarans.
http://www.bayacht.com/goodbad.htm

--Vic

ps. If Wilbur is right I might switch my boat-buying plans from
the Gemini 105 to the Mac 26M.


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