wrote in message
ps.com...
On Feb 22, 3:37 am, wrote:
I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems.
Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising.
I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to
get.
I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own
experience.
TIA

I had the Dutchman system on my recently sold boat and have sailed on
boats with Lazy Jacks. My next boat will have Lazy Jacks without
question. I would not use an in mast or in boom furling system.
Although I have never used one, I have heard enough complaints about
the difficulty of reefing in nasty conditions that safety would
override conveniece. In mast reefing also means a big fat mast which
means more windage, less effective main sail (due to greater
disruption of air flow around the fat mast) and more weight aloft. All
bad things in my opinion.

I found the Dutchman and LJ systems were about the same in ease of use
and had about the same level of sensitivety to wind direction when
lowering (you need to head straight into the wind for both). The thing
I didn't like about the Dutchman, besdes the need for widgets in the
sail and additional seams/zippers in the sail cover, is that the lines
are constantly rubbing against the sail. I got some chafing of the
sail and also ended up with stains on the sails where the lines touch
the sail. Not sure of the cause (rain water running down the lines
concentrating the dirt??). This was after 2 years of moderate use.

The biggest reason I prefer lazy jacks is because I am lazy and I love
the lazy bags (there are various names for them but I am talking about
the sail cover that is attached to the lower ends of he lazy jack
lines and the boom). You simply drop the sail into the cover and then
zip it up. No more removing, stowing and then replacing the sail cover
on a regular basis. I imagine one of these boom mounted sail covers
could be added to a dutchman rigged sail but you would then need
additional lines to hold up the sides of the sail cover.

-Greg

It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't
have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had
problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've
used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the
sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping
the sail..

I'm not a big fan of furling mains either, but if I had to pick, I'd pick
the in-boom system. At least you can drop the sail if there's a problem with
the halyard. With the in-mast species, you're pretty much stuck.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message


It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't
have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had
problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've
used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the
sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping
the sail..

We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks.

Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on
Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then
position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook.

Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing.
When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail,
pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up.

The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of
the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept
up by tension.

I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all
the reasons previously cited...

L8R

Skip

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"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message


It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't
have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had
problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time
I've
used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise
the
sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with
dropping
the sail..

We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks.

Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on
Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then
position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook.

Well, that's not a problem if you have more than one pair of hands. The
extra effort doesn't seem worth it for something that's supposed to just
deal with the sails. It's yet another thing to do to get the sails raised or
lowered.


Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing.
When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail,
pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up.

The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of
the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept
up by tension.

I've used the stack pack also... it's ok but then there's this bag that's
just sitting there, and if for some reason the sail doesn't go in
completely, it can be a hassle pushing it in.

I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all
the reasons previously cited...

L8R

Skip



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks.
Why semi full batten?
Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks?

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message


It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't
have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had
problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time
I've
used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise
the
sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with
dropping
the sail..

We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks.

Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on
Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then
position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook.

Well, that's not a problem if you have more than one pair of hands. The
extra effort doesn't seem worth it for something that's supposed to just
deal with the sails. It's yet another thing to do to get the sails raised
or lowered.


Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing.
When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail,
pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up.

The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of
the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept
up by tension.

I've used the stack pack also... it's ok but then there's this bag that's
just sitting there, and if for some reason the sail doesn't go in
completely, it can be a hassle pushing it in.

I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all
the reasons previously cited...

L8R

Skip



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
news
I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks.
Why semi full batten?
Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks?


Essie has "semi full battens" in her mainsail. No, it doesn't help the
battens from catching on the lazyjacks -- it's meant to gain the benefits of
full battens, but without the need for battcars. The battens are long, but
don't extend all the way to the mast. I like them -- they help maintain good
sail shape, something that regular length battens can't do, only being there
to support the roach.

wrote in message
news
I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks.
Why semi full batten?
Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks?


I would think it would help minimally, but most of my experience with
battens/LJs have been with battens that are not full.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
news
I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy
Jacks. Why semi full batten?
Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks?


I would think it would help minimally, but most of my experience with
battens/LJs have been with battens that are not full.


As a follow up, I should say that LJs are definitely preferable to not
having anything. When I got my most recent boat, it had nothing, and going
from scratch had the local sail loft (Quantum) evaluate the main as
appropriately "young" for the Dutchman (it was), sell me the unit, modify
the main, and install it. They were very inexpensive and it sure was easier
than trying to rig it myself. I may have mentioned earlier, the training was
painless... a few times. I think a lot of credit has to go to the previous
owner who was very consistent with his sail flaking.

The last boat also had nothing, but was so small I made and put my own LJs
on her. They worked but did occasionally snag one of the particial battens.
It wasn't a big deal because I could usually just reach up and fix it. I
can't do that on my Sabre.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
news
I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy
Jacks. Why semi full batten?
Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks?


I would think it would help minimally, but most of my experience with
battens/LJs have been with battens that are not full.


As a follow up, I should say that LJs are definitely preferable to not
having anything. When I got my most recent boat, it had nothing, and going
from scratch had the local sail loft (Quantum) evaluate the main as
appropriately "young" for the Dutchman (it was), sell me the unit, modify
the main, and install it. They were very inexpensive and it sure was
easier than trying to rig it myself. I may have mentioned earlier, the
training was painless... a few times. I think a lot of credit has to go to
the previous owner who was very consistent with his sail flaking.

The last boat also had nothing, but was so small I made and put my own LJs
on her. They worked but did occasionally snag one of the particial
battens. It wasn't a big deal because I could usually just reach up and
fix it. I can't do that on my Sabre.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



My LazyJacks like to snag if I'm being a LazyJill. As long as I go forward
and slack them off, then pull the leeward LJ forward with a bungee before
hoisting sail, all's Jake.

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:23:36 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

As a follow up, I should say that LJs are definitely preferable to not
having anything.

I agree with that, I think they're a big help getting the main under
control.

On my old Cal-34 we rigged something that I called "poor man's lazy
jacks". Basically they were just two pieces of 3/8ths shock cord run
along each side of the boom, each with a small loop tied in the middle
of the shock cord. When I wanted to use the "lazy jacks" I'd bring a
halyard aft around the shrouds on each side of the boat, clip each
halyard to the loop in the shock cord, and then hoist the halyard up
about 15 ft forming a triangle with the shock cord on each side of the
boom. It was very effective, cost next to nothing, and was out of the
way when you didn't need it.

In writes:

I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks.
Why semi full batten?
Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks?

Some sailmakers prefer to make the two lowest battens only half the
lenght or nearer three quarters of sailwidth. It helps in reducing the
friction as the "wagons" on the end of the longest battens tend to be
pushed a bit to the side and thus have more friction.

To make it easier to hoist the sail between the lazyjacks you have to
hang the lazyjacks about one foot from the mast to the spreaders and
then point the boat straight into the wind when hoistin the sail.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message


It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't
have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had
problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time
I've
used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise
the
sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with
dropping
the sail..

We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks.

Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on
Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then
position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook.

Well, that's not a problem if you have more than one pair of hands. The
extra effort doesn't seem worth it for something that's supposed to just
deal with the sails. It's yet another thing to do to get the sails raised
or lowered.


Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing.
When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail,
pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up.

The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of
the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept
up by tension.

I've used the stack pack also... it's ok but then there's this bag that's
just sitting there, and if for some reason the sail doesn't go in
completely, it can be a hassle pushing it in.

I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all
the reasons previously cited...

L8R

Skip



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com