wrote:
Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective.

Well, you should be happy that you *think* sailing
performance improved, then.

Seriously, did you know know what your boats pointing angles
were with the old sails? Did you not have a good idea for
what speeds it would attain in given wind conditions &
points of sail? What were you doing all the previous times
you sailed?


... Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.

Depends on what you mean by "lightly used."

Most resins used in sailcloth (especially pre-1990 or so)
get brittle over time even if the sails sit rolled up on a
shelf. Heat also degrades the cloth. So if the sails were
perfectly rolled & stored, they'd suffer loss of strength &
resiliency. UV is also terrible for sails.

Considering 'light use,' hoisting & furling sails puts a
small amount of wear & tear on the fabric & stitching. Any
time the sail flaps or flogs, that's not good for it either.
Folding the sail breaks down the resin & fibers & weakens
the sail. Dragging the sail across the ground or floor is
terrible for it.... in fact I once saw a man bundle a sail
up in his arms and unintentionally drag a corner of it
across a parking lot. When he went to put it in the back of
his station wagon, several sail panels came apart... the
stitching had been abraded to nothing. I've had my sails
damaged by having stitching catch on dock splinters, it
looked like unraveling a knitted sweater.

Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?


Not really. Their treatment does not restore the strength of
the cloth, and if they don't re-cut the sail then the shape
is not restored. It improves the looks though. And if they
restitch places that need it, like batten pockets, this
might be more cost-effective than taking it to a sail maker.

One method to restore the shape of some sails might be to
detach the bolt rope from the bottom of the luff sleeve. The
bolt rope often shrinks with age and this puckers the sail
into a baggy shape, even if it's not blown out. If the bolt
rope is sewn into a sleeve and the stitched thru to hold it
in place, sever the thru stitching and let the tack slide
down from the end of the bolt rope. You might have to put a
slug on the tack so it will stay in the luff groove.

It is also possible to restore some shape in the sail by
recutting, either at the luff round or one or two
broadseams. If you are geting a sail restitched, ask about this.

Most non-racing sailors are getting shoved around with
crappy sails, and don't know any better. Blown-out sails
affect the boats steering and heeling as well as speed &
pointing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
wrote:

Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective.


Well, you should be happy that you *think* sailing performance improved,
then.

Seriously, did you know know what your boats pointing angles were with
the old sails? Did you not have a good idea for what speeds it would
attain in given wind conditions & points of sail? What were you doing
all the previous times you sailed?


... Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.


Depends on what you mean by "lightly used."

Most resins used in sailcloth (especially pre-1990 or so) get brittle
over time even if the sails sit rolled up on a shelf. Heat also degrades
the cloth. So if the sails were perfectly rolled & stored, they'd suffer
loss of strength & resiliency. UV is also terrible for sails.

Considering 'light use,' hoisting & furling sails puts a small amount of
wear & tear on the fabric & stitching. Any time the sail flaps or flogs,
that's not good for it either. Folding the sail breaks down the resin &
fibers & weakens the sail. Dragging the sail across the ground or floor
is terrible for it.... in fact I once saw a man bundle a sail up in his
arms and unintentionally drag a corner of it across a parking lot. When
he went to put it in the back of his station wagon, several sail panels
came apart... the stitching had been abraded to nothing. I've had my
sails damaged by having stitching catch on dock splinters, it looked
like unraveling a knitted sweater.

Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?


Not really. Their treatment does not restore the strength of the cloth,
and if they don't re-cut the sail then the shape is not restored. It
improves the looks though. And if they restitch places that need it,
like batten pockets, this might be more cost-effective than taking it to
a sail maker.

One method to restore the shape of some sails might be to detach the
bolt rope from the bottom of the luff sleeve. The bolt rope often
shrinks with age and this puckers the sail into a baggy shape, even if
it's not blown out. If the bolt rope is sewn into a sleeve and the
stitched thru to hold it in place, sever the thru stitching and let the
tack slide down from the end of the bolt rope. You might have to put a
slug on the tack so it will stay in the luff groove.

It is also possible to restore some shape in the sail by recutting,
either at the luff round or one or two broadseams. If you are geting a
sail restitched, ask about this.

Most non-racing sailors are getting shoved around with crappy sails, and
don't know any better. Blown-out sails affect the boats steering and
heeling as well as speed & pointing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

But they do work if you are on a budget. Dacron lasts for decades.

Gaz
Baggy sails and still sailing.

Gary wrote:
But they do work if you are on a budget. Dacron lasts for decades.


Sure. Even a soggy milk carton can go down wind. And blown
out old sails will go upwind, sort of.

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

DSK

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

rhys,
Yes, but the high tech material does not last as long as Dacron.


"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

SailCare.com says they replace the "resin" that is on new sails and
they restitch whatever needs it. I want to know how to evaluate the
shape of a sail so I can decide the most effective way to restitch to
renew the shape. I agree, older material is probably not as strong as
newer but many sails arre very lightly used. Quite frankly, I simply
do not believe what sailmakers say about sails aging just by sitting on
a shelf. I also think that a considerable part of the stretch of an
older sail is in the stitching and not in th ematerial itself. Even
sail material that has stretched probably has not gone beyond the yield
point of the material so unless it is actually worn or degraded by UV,
I think that most of any loss of strength is in the stitching.
So, how does one evaluate the shape of a sail?

wrote:
SailCare.com says they replace the "resin" that is on new sails and
they restitch whatever needs it. I want to know how to evaluate the
shape of a sail so I can decide the most effective way to restitch to
renew the shape. I agree, older material is probably not as strong as
newer but many sails arre very lightly used. Quite frankly, I simply
do not believe what sailmakers say about sails aging just by sitting on
a shelf. I also think that a considerable part of the stretch of an
older sail is in the stitching and not in th ematerial itself. Even
sail material that has stretched probably has not gone beyond the yield
point of the material so unless it is actually worn or degraded by UV,
I think that most of any loss of strength is in the stitching.
So, how does one evaluate the shape of a sail?


I think you're correct about the way sail makers always find the best
solution is; hey guess what??.............. a new sail from them:-)

The modern sail cloth is pretty strong & it will last years & years, a
close look for abrasion etc but the panels themselves should be OK,
given that most used sails are not all that old in years anyway. It's
just the boy racers imagining they'll go lots faster with new ones, so
thankfully they're a ready source of used young sails.

Obviously the panels are stitched together & again a good close exam
will show any problems, the sail cloth is so hard & tough the stitching
stands proud so it cops most of the chafing, but most are easy to have
repaired or doubled (say batten pockets, where the spreaders rub, or
from the lowers when close hauled.)

As to the shape this is not usually a problem, the sail's shape is cut
into it & despite what the go faster brigade tell you with modern cloths
there is very little if any "stretch" in the panels themselves. It
appears there is but that's the stitching getting loose.

If you want to check it just lay it flat on a floor (assuming you have
one big enough:-)) & check to see the foot, luff & leach are a
consistent curve with the max depth about 1/3 the way up for the foot &
luff & around 1/2 for the leach. The amount of curve depends on which
sail it is; say most mainsails it's around 1" for every 5' of luff
length, 1" for every 3'6" of foot length & 1' (1 foot) per 25' of leach
length. Most headsails are 1" in 5" for the luff & 2" in 5" for the foot
the leach is usually pretty straight but big genoas may even have some
reverse roach in the leach. For non racing sails you probably don't care
much about the figures just that the curve is consistent & flows
smoothly, if it doesn't the sail may have been damaged & not properly
repaired or has been recut down from a larger size incorrectly (Believe
it of not some people just take bit off till it fits the new triangle:-))

Go for it you'll get much better miles per dollar than new & in an
accident caught on something in the middle of the night:-) you haven't
lost a hugely expensive sail.

K

Rhys,
I agree with your assessment. I need a new suite of sails. Where do I start
looking for stretched racing sails?
Do you have recommendations?
Steve

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

Merry Christmas to all!

wrote:
SailCare.com says they replace the "resin" that is on new sails and
they restitch whatever needs it. I want to know how to evaluate the
shape of a sail so I can decide the most effective way to restitch to
renew the shape.

2 ways sails are shaped, luff round & broadseaming. Luff
round is the easiest to change, this is just a big curve
built into the front of the sail so that when it is hoisted
on a (relatively) straight mast, there is extra material in
the middle. Broadseaming is cutting the horizontal edges of
the panels in a curve so that the sail will form a 3-D curve
when the edges are sewn (or glued) together.


.... I agree, older material is probably not as strong as
newer but many sails arre very lightly used.

Well, between flogging & UV even a "lightly used" sail can
be shot.

.... Quite frankly, I simply
do not believe what sailmakers say about sails aging just by sitting on
a shelf.

Well, I'm not a sailmaker, and I told you (or tried to).
Believe what you want, it happens to be true.

... I also think that a considerable part of the stretch of an
older sail is in the stitching and not in th ematerial itself.

Certainly the stitching can loosen and give the sail a
baggier shape, but the stitches will not stretch. It's
strictly a one-way process!

... Even
sail material that has stretched probably has not gone beyond the yield
point of the material so unless it is actually worn or degraded by UV,
I think that most of any loss of strength is in the stitching.
So, how does one evaluate the shape of a sail?

A couple of ways. One is to lay the sail out in a loft or
yard, and fasten the tack, foot, & clew at about waist
height with a line on each that can be tightened. Tension
the luff first, then lightly haul the foot up. Another is to
watch very carefully what the sail looks like when sailing.
Looking up from the midpoint of the foot, you should see a
nice classic airfoil shape, and you should be able to see
definite & consistent change when the "sail shape
adjustments" are pulled.

A blown-out sail will have one or more-

-max draft too far aft (IMHO 55%+ is shot)
-draft too deep even when sail is adjusted for max flatness
-Lack of response to shape adjustment
-Lack or elasticity, ie sail does not return to shape
consistently when shape adjustment eased
-hard spots in camber, particularly at inner batten ends (I
have seen many sails that were described by the owner as
"old but still got a lot of life" with upper sections
forming a V)

By reducing luff round, camber can be reduced but it also
shifts aft. If a sail is going to be restitched, the
broadseams can be adjusted but most sailmakers dislike doing
this. BTW it's not just the stitching, the cloth thru which
the stitches are sewn also lose strength. I have personally
used sails that have been restitched 4 times, when I took
them in for the 5th time the sailmaker said "Y'know Doug,
there's not enough cloth here left to sew" and showed me the
close network of holes from old stitching.

Blown-out sails will affect the boat badly-
-inconsistent helm, and excessive weather helm
-excessive heeling
-little or no acceleration in gusts
-poor windward performance, especially pointing
-slower

Old sails with weakened cloth & stitching are also at much
higher risk of shredding under load. I've had this happen a
number of times, too. It's a bummer.



K. Smith wrote:
The modern sail cloth is pretty strong & it will last years & years,

Actually, if you expose it to UV all day every day, and put
it under strain 24/7 it will last surprisingly short time.


.... It's
just the boy racers imagining they'll go lots faster with new ones

Spoken like a "sailor" who as 1- never won a race and never
will, and 2- has never sailed a tuned-up boat with good sails.



As to the shape this is not usually a problem

Wrong

If you want to check it just lay it flat on a floor

wrong

How the heck are you going to examine a 3 dimensional shape
laying it flat on a floor? Oh wait, you don't think shape is
ever a problem...

Proving once again that usenet is a great source of horribly
wrong info.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On 24 Dec 2005 21:47:05 -0800, "
wrote:

So, how does one evaluate the shape of a sail?

========================================

The objective of sail shape is to maintain a proper foil section,
appropriate to the wind strength. The key measurements are depth of
the draft, and position of the draft along the chord length. If you
have horizontal stripes on your sails you can quantify these metrics
by taking pictures upwards from mid-way along the foot of the sail,
printing the picture, and measuring graphically. The optimal depth
and position of maximum draft varies according to wind speed and can
be adjusted to a certain extent with sail controls such as outhaul
tension, halyard tension, mast bend, etc. In general, the position of
maximum draft should be just forward of the chord center, and the
optimal amount of draft decreases as wind strength increases (thus
reducing side force).

Older sails tend to stretch out of shape in such a way the draft tends
to move aft which is an inefficient shape. They also develop wrinkles
and uneven shape which are also slow.

North sails had some excellent books at one time on sail shape.

This is the definitive work on a scientific level but it is expensive
and VERY technical:

http://tinyurl.com/dg2q4

Here are a couple of others:

http://tinyurl.com/curwo

http://tinyurl.com/bg3xv