wrote:
Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective.

Well, you should be happy that you *think* sailing
performance improved, then.

Seriously, did you know know what your boats pointing angles
were with the old sails? Did you not have a good idea for
what speeds it would attain in given wind conditions &
points of sail? What were you doing all the previous times
you sailed?


... Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.

Depends on what you mean by "lightly used."

Most resins used in sailcloth (especially pre-1990 or so)
get brittle over time even if the sails sit rolled up on a
shelf. Heat also degrades the cloth. So if the sails were
perfectly rolled & stored, they'd suffer loss of strength &
resiliency. UV is also terrible for sails.

Considering 'light use,' hoisting & furling sails puts a
small amount of wear & tear on the fabric & stitching. Any
time the sail flaps or flogs, that's not good for it either.
Folding the sail breaks down the resin & fibers & weakens
the sail. Dragging the sail across the ground or floor is
terrible for it.... in fact I once saw a man bundle a sail
up in his arms and unintentionally drag a corner of it
across a parking lot. When he went to put it in the back of
his station wagon, several sail panels came apart... the
stitching had been abraded to nothing. I've had my sails
damaged by having stitching catch on dock splinters, it
looked like unraveling a knitted sweater.

Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?


Not really. Their treatment does not restore the strength of
the cloth, and if they don't re-cut the sail then the shape
is not restored. It improves the looks though. And if they
restitch places that need it, like batten pockets, this
might be more cost-effective than taking it to a sail maker.

One method to restore the shape of some sails might be to
detach the bolt rope from the bottom of the luff sleeve. The
bolt rope often shrinks with age and this puckers the sail
into a baggy shape, even if it's not blown out. If the bolt
rope is sewn into a sleeve and the stitched thru to hold it
in place, sever the thru stitching and let the tack slide
down from the end of the bolt rope. You might have to put a
slug on the tack so it will stay in the luff groove.

It is also possible to restore some shape in the sail by
recutting, either at the luff round or one or two
broadseams. If you are geting a sail restitched, ask about this.

Most non-racing sailors are getting shoved around with
crappy sails, and don't know any better. Blown-out sails
affect the boats steering and heeling as well as speed &
pointing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
wrote:

Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective.


Well, you should be happy that you *think* sailing performance improved,
then.

Seriously, did you know know what your boats pointing angles were with
the old sails? Did you not have a good idea for what speeds it would
attain in given wind conditions & points of sail? What were you doing
all the previous times you sailed?


... Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.


Depends on what you mean by "lightly used."

Most resins used in sailcloth (especially pre-1990 or so) get brittle
over time even if the sails sit rolled up on a shelf. Heat also degrades
the cloth. So if the sails were perfectly rolled & stored, they'd suffer
loss of strength & resiliency. UV is also terrible for sails.

Considering 'light use,' hoisting & furling sails puts a small amount of
wear & tear on the fabric & stitching. Any time the sail flaps or flogs,
that's not good for it either. Folding the sail breaks down the resin &
fibers & weakens the sail. Dragging the sail across the ground or floor
is terrible for it.... in fact I once saw a man bundle a sail up in his
arms and unintentionally drag a corner of it across a parking lot. When
he went to put it in the back of his station wagon, several sail panels
came apart... the stitching had been abraded to nothing. I've had my
sails damaged by having stitching catch on dock splinters, it looked
like unraveling a knitted sweater.

Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?


Not really. Their treatment does not restore the strength of the cloth,
and if they don't re-cut the sail then the shape is not restored. It
improves the looks though. And if they restitch places that need it,
like batten pockets, this might be more cost-effective than taking it to
a sail maker.

One method to restore the shape of some sails might be to detach the
bolt rope from the bottom of the luff sleeve. The bolt rope often
shrinks with age and this puckers the sail into a baggy shape, even if
it's not blown out. If the bolt rope is sewn into a sleeve and the
stitched thru to hold it in place, sever the thru stitching and let the
tack slide down from the end of the bolt rope. You might have to put a
slug on the tack so it will stay in the luff groove.

It is also possible to restore some shape in the sail by recutting,
either at the luff round or one or two broadseams. If you are geting a
sail restitched, ask about this.

Most non-racing sailors are getting shoved around with crappy sails, and
don't know any better. Blown-out sails affect the boats steering and
heeling as well as speed & pointing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

But they do work if you are on a budget. Dacron lasts for decades.

Gaz
Baggy sails and still sailing.

Gary wrote:
But they do work if you are on a budget. Dacron lasts for decades.


Sure. Even a soggy milk carton can go down wind. And blown
out old sails will go upwind, sort of.

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

DSK

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

rhys,
Yes, but the high tech material does not last as long as Dacron.


"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

SailCare.com says they replace the "resin" that is on new sails and
they restitch whatever needs it. I want to know how to evaluate the
shape of a sail so I can decide the most effective way to restitch to
renew the shape. I agree, older material is probably not as strong as
newer but many sails arre very lightly used. Quite frankly, I simply
do not believe what sailmakers say about sails aging just by sitting on
a shelf. I also think that a considerable part of the stretch of an
older sail is in the stitching and not in th ematerial itself. Even
sail material that has stretched probably has not gone beyond the yield
point of the material so unless it is actually worn or degraded by UV,
I think that most of any loss of strength is in the stitching.
So, how does one evaluate the shape of a sail?

Rhys,
I agree with your assessment. I need a new suite of sails. Where do I start
looking for stretched racing sails?
Do you have recommendations?
Steve

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

Contact your local sail makers, the class association group, or your local
yacht club. Most of the serious racers will change sails every year. If
you can't find any in your area, go to:
http://www.sailingtexas.com/csails.html

and look half way down the page. You will see a links to people who sell
used sails.





"Steve Lusardi" wrote in message
...
Rhys,
I agree with your assessment. I need a new suite of sails. Where do I
start looking for stretched racing sails?
Do you have recommendations?
Steve

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:59:41 +0100, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Rhys,
I agree with your assessment. I need a new suite of sails. Where do I start
looking for stretched racing sails?
Do you have recommendations?
Steve

I sense sarcasm. I did not say "stretched", and I can only tell you
that we have an active race element at my club (we hosted a NOOD event
last summer) and that a sail deemed OK but not cutting edge
competitive by a guy on a Farr 40 can be the world's most expensive
dropcloth OR it can do decent service on a cruiser.

I converted a Spectra/Mylar No. 1 from a C&C 34R to my Viking 33,
which is a '70s IOR influenced boat with a big J and a small main. I
paid about $200 for inspection, minor repair and conversion from tape
luff to piston hanks. It replaces a Dacron 153% No. 1 genoa (light)
from the late '80s that got shredded in a gust and which would cost me
about $2,500-$2,700 Cdn. to replace, new, as Dacron.

The recut sail, about three seasons old, equals about 142% and is
slightly off the deck at the clew. Otherwise, it fits well and retains
to my eye (and I trim on PHRF race boats) a pretty decent shape. It
certainly drives the boat well and while heavier than the original
light genoa it replaced, seems like a good choice in all but ghosting
conditions, for which I have a big asymmetrical, anyway.

I am having a main cut back on the leech of the same material and
slugs added on the foot to suit my boom for about $200. I have several
nearly new Dacron sails (including a superb No. 3 that still "smells"
new) that I've culled from guys who've gone to composites mid-season
due to the insane one-upmanship you find at the club level when the
racers have a bit of cash...like $10-$15K per season...to drop on 25
year old C&Cs and the like.

It works for me. Ask a racer with a dimensionally similar boat to your
own if he/she stowed a Dacron sail after one season eight years ago
and kept it dry. Ask if you can see it. You never know.

It's working for me, and I get to budget for new sails and rigging I
really have to buy new instead of entire suits of sails all at once.

Except for the storm jib. It's 20 years old and still smells new, as
does the genoa staysail G

R.

Sorry for jumping in late as I dont have the original posting.

Stitching is easy to replace and redo. The addition of an adhesive
tape (PECO tape, etc.) between the broadseams and with an extra row of
stitches will solve such weakness cause by UV degeradation of the
thread.
The killer of dacron sails is UV exposure, the 'whiter' the sail the
more rapid the UV degradation. Take a large bladed screw driver and
test especially the corners adjacent to the reinforcement pateches ...
if the screwdriver blade is easily pushed THROUGH the sail cloth .....
time for new sails.

Just about ANY sail has a lifetime of only a 'few hundred hours' if
used hard. Racing sails get the ultimate stress (because the crews
know HOW to overstress a sail .... therefore in my mind would make a
very poor choice for a 'replacment' or recut for cruising. The issue
here is 'creep' or permanent deformation of the fibers due to
'oversstretching' of the structure of the cloth - a trulely
'blown-out' sail. Taped luff sails are essentially 'non-adjustable' and
once blown out cant be easily re-cut back to good shape unless they are
also have their borad seams resewn.

A sail with a boltrope (three strand dacron rope in a sleeve at the
luff) can usually be brought back to decent shape by simply 'adjusting
or easing the rope. What happens in a boltroped sail is that every
time you strain the rope it gets shorter and fatter until the sail
appear very baggy with draft well aft and the leech hooking to windward
..... most times all thats needed to get such a sail back into
serviceable shape is to cut open the heavy stitching that attaches the
rope to the sleeve, let the rope slide down a bit into the sleeve and
reattach rewsew it with waxed sailtwine Such sails usually are
originally 'preloaded' by cutting the rope shorter by about 1 inch for
every 10 ft. of luff length. If you have the exact original dimensions
of the sail, just check the current luff length versus the original
length and reset and resew the bolt rope and the sail will take on
proper shape and begin to have 'new life'. This for woven DACRON
sails with a boltrope NOT for mylar or other laminated sail material.
Why I recommend adjustment of the boltrope is that perhaps 95% of
'cruising' sailors never apply proper halyard tension anyway and in
doing so all the time, the boltrope naturally shrinks to a smaller
length as a natural course. So if your present mainsail has a very
ROUNDED luff shape, seems very full with the draft at or beyond the 50%
length of cord and the leech seems to be hooking up to windward ....
take the sail to a sailmaker to have the boltrope 'eased/adjusted' ...
if this doesnt vastly improve the sails performance, then consider a
used or entirely new sail. The shrinking process of the three strand
rope is the same process that makes docklines shorter and fatter (and
stiffer)... repetetive strain.
..... this is for woven DACRON sails with three strand dacron BOLTROPES
inside a sleeve at the luff.

hope this helps.






In article , DSK
wrote:

wrote:
Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective.

Well, you should be happy that you *think* sailing
performance improved, then.

Seriously, did you know know what your boats pointing angles
were with the old sails? Did you not have a good idea for
what speeds it would attain in given wind conditions &
points of sail? What were you doing all the previous times
you sailed?


... Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.

Depends on what you mean by "lightly used."

Most resins used in sailcloth (especially pre-1990 or so)
get brittle over time even if the sails sit rolled up on a
shelf. Heat also degrades the cloth. So if the sails were
perfectly rolled & stored, they'd suffer loss of strength &
resiliency. UV is also terrible for sails.

Considering 'light use,' hoisting & furling sails puts a
small amount of wear & tear on the fabric & stitching. Any
time the sail flaps or flogs, that's not good for it either.
Folding the sail breaks down the resin & fibers & weakens
the sail. Dragging the sail across the ground or floor is
terrible for it.... in fact I once saw a man bundle a sail
up in his arms and unintentionally drag a corner of it
across a parking lot. When he went to put it in the back of
his station wagon, several sail panels came apart... the
stitching had been abraded to nothing. I've had my sails
damaged by having stitching catch on dock splinters, it
looked like unraveling a knitted sweater.

Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?


Not really. Their treatment does not restore the strength of
the cloth, and if they don't re-cut the sail then the shape
is not restored. It improves the looks though. And if they
restitch places that need it, like batten pockets, this
might be more cost-effective than taking it to a sail maker.

One method to restore the shape of some sails might be to
detach the bolt rope from the bottom of the luff sleeve. The
bolt rope often shrinks with age and this puckers the sail
into a baggy shape, even if it's not blown out. If the bolt
rope is sewn into a sleeve and the stitched thru to hold it
in place, sever the thru stitching and let the tack slide
down from the end of the bolt rope. You might have to put a
slug on the tack so it will stay in the luff groove.

It is also possible to restore some shape in the sail by
recutting, either at the luff round or one or two
broadseams. If you are geting a sail restitched, ask about this.

Most non-racing sailors are getting shoved around with
crappy sails, and don't know any better. Blown-out sails
affect the boats steering and heeling as well as speed &
pointing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King