Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective. Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.
Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?

If you don't know how to evaluate the sails ask some people from the local
sailing / racing club to evaluate your sails and there form. Since you are
using these for cruising, it doesn't have to be the best sails, but they can
give you an idea what you can expect if you have them recut.


wrote in message
ups.com...
Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective. Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.
Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?

wrote:
Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective.

Well, you should be happy that you *think* sailing
performance improved, then.

Seriously, did you know know what your boats pointing angles
were with the old sails? Did you not have a good idea for
what speeds it would attain in given wind conditions &
points of sail? What were you doing all the previous times
you sailed?


... Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.

Depends on what you mean by "lightly used."

Most resins used in sailcloth (especially pre-1990 or so)
get brittle over time even if the sails sit rolled up on a
shelf. Heat also degrades the cloth. So if the sails were
perfectly rolled & stored, they'd suffer loss of strength &
resiliency. UV is also terrible for sails.

Considering 'light use,' hoisting & furling sails puts a
small amount of wear & tear on the fabric & stitching. Any
time the sail flaps or flogs, that's not good for it either.
Folding the sail breaks down the resin & fibers & weakens
the sail. Dragging the sail across the ground or floor is
terrible for it.... in fact I once saw a man bundle a sail
up in his arms and unintentionally drag a corner of it
across a parking lot. When he went to put it in the back of
his station wagon, several sail panels came apart... the
stitching had been abraded to nothing. I've had my sails
damaged by having stitching catch on dock splinters, it
looked like unraveling a knitted sweater.

Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?


Not really. Their treatment does not restore the strength of
the cloth, and if they don't re-cut the sail then the shape
is not restored. It improves the looks though. And if they
restitch places that need it, like batten pockets, this
might be more cost-effective than taking it to a sail maker.

One method to restore the shape of some sails might be to
detach the bolt rope from the bottom of the luff sleeve. The
bolt rope often shrinks with age and this puckers the sail
into a baggy shape, even if it's not blown out. If the bolt
rope is sewn into a sleeve and the stitched thru to hold it
in place, sever the thru stitching and let the tack slide
down from the end of the bolt rope. You might have to put a
slug on the tack so it will stay in the luff groove.

It is also possible to restore some shape in the sail by
recutting, either at the luff round or one or two
broadseams. If you are geting a sail restitched, ask about this.

Most non-racing sailors are getting shoved around with
crappy sails, and don't know any better. Blown-out sails
affect the boats steering and heeling as well as speed &
pointing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:
wrote:

Last year, I replaced the 22 yr old sails on my 28' S2. Based strictly
on stitching inspection, I think the sails had many more years of use
but I replaced them because I was convinced by other people that
sailing performance would improve. I believe the sailing performance
DID improve but cannot be sure because this si so subjective.


Well, you should be happy that you *think* sailing performance improved,
then.

Seriously, did you know know what your boats pointing angles were with
the old sails? Did you not have a good idea for what speeds it would
attain in given wind conditions & points of sail? What were you doing
all the previous times you sailed?


... Now I am
skeptical and wonder if sails that are lightly used ( i do not race)
really do become significantly stretched and then do not work well.


Depends on what you mean by "lightly used."

Most resins used in sailcloth (especially pre-1990 or so) get brittle
over time even if the sails sit rolled up on a shelf. Heat also degrades
the cloth. So if the sails were perfectly rolled & stored, they'd suffer
loss of strength & resiliency. UV is also terrible for sails.

Considering 'light use,' hoisting & furling sails puts a small amount of
wear & tear on the fabric & stitching. Any time the sail flaps or flogs,
that's not good for it either. Folding the sail breaks down the resin &
fibers & weakens the sail. Dragging the sail across the ground or floor
is terrible for it.... in fact I once saw a man bundle a sail up in his
arms and unintentionally drag a corner of it across a parking lot. When
he went to put it in the back of his station wagon, several sail panels
came apart... the stitching had been abraded to nothing. I've had my
sails damaged by having stitching catch on dock splinters, it looked
like unraveling a knitted sweater.

Would having the old sails reconditioned by SailCare make them perform
well?


Not really. Their treatment does not restore the strength of the cloth,
and if they don't re-cut the sail then the shape is not restored. It
improves the looks though. And if they restitch places that need it,
like batten pockets, this might be more cost-effective than taking it to
a sail maker.

One method to restore the shape of some sails might be to detach the
bolt rope from the bottom of the luff sleeve. The bolt rope often
shrinks with age and this puckers the sail into a baggy shape, even if
it's not blown out. If the bolt rope is sewn into a sleeve and the
stitched thru to hold it in place, sever the thru stitching and let the
tack slide down from the end of the bolt rope. You might have to put a
slug on the tack so it will stay in the luff groove.

It is also possible to restore some shape in the sail by recutting,
either at the luff round or one or two broadseams. If you are geting a
sail restitched, ask about this.

Most non-racing sailors are getting shoved around with crappy sails, and
don't know any better. Blown-out sails affect the boats steering and
heeling as well as speed & pointing.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

But they do work if you are on a budget. Dacron lasts for decades.

Gaz
Baggy sails and still sailing.

Gary wrote:
But they do work if you are on a budget. Dacron lasts for decades.


Sure. Even a soggy milk carton can go down wind. And blown
out old sails will go upwind, sort of.

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

DSK

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

rhys,
Yes, but the high tech material does not last as long as Dacron.


"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.

SailCare.com says they replace the "resin" that is on new sails and
they restitch whatever needs it. I want to know how to evaluate the
shape of a sail so I can decide the most effective way to restitch to
renew the shape. I agree, older material is probably not as strong as
newer but many sails arre very lightly used. Quite frankly, I simply
do not believe what sailmakers say about sails aging just by sitting on
a shelf. I also think that a considerable part of the stretch of an
older sail is in the stitching and not in th ematerial itself. Even
sail material that has stretched probably has not gone beyond the yield
point of the material so unless it is actually worn or degraded by UV,
I think that most of any loss of strength is in the stitching.
So, how does one evaluate the shape of a sail?

wrote:
SailCare.com says they replace the "resin" that is on new sails and
they restitch whatever needs it. I want to know how to evaluate the
shape of a sail so I can decide the most effective way to restitch to
renew the shape. I agree, older material is probably not as strong as
newer but many sails arre very lightly used. Quite frankly, I simply
do not believe what sailmakers say about sails aging just by sitting on
a shelf. I also think that a considerable part of the stretch of an
older sail is in the stitching and not in th ematerial itself. Even
sail material that has stretched probably has not gone beyond the yield
point of the material so unless it is actually worn or degraded by UV,
I think that most of any loss of strength is in the stitching.
So, how does one evaluate the shape of a sail?


I think you're correct about the way sail makers always find the best
solution is; hey guess what??.............. a new sail from them:-)

The modern sail cloth is pretty strong & it will last years & years, a
close look for abrasion etc but the panels themselves should be OK,
given that most used sails are not all that old in years anyway. It's
just the boy racers imagining they'll go lots faster with new ones, so
thankfully they're a ready source of used young sails.

Obviously the panels are stitched together & again a good close exam
will show any problems, the sail cloth is so hard & tough the stitching
stands proud so it cops most of the chafing, but most are easy to have
repaired or doubled (say batten pockets, where the spreaders rub, or
from the lowers when close hauled.)

As to the shape this is not usually a problem, the sail's shape is cut
into it & despite what the go faster brigade tell you with modern cloths
there is very little if any "stretch" in the panels themselves. It
appears there is but that's the stitching getting loose.

If you want to check it just lay it flat on a floor (assuming you have
one big enough:-)) & check to see the foot, luff & leach are a
consistent curve with the max depth about 1/3 the way up for the foot &
luff & around 1/2 for the leach. The amount of curve depends on which
sail it is; say most mainsails it's around 1" for every 5' of luff
length, 1" for every 3'6" of foot length & 1' (1 foot) per 25' of leach
length. Most headsails are 1" in 5" for the luff & 2" in 5" for the foot
the leach is usually pretty straight but big genoas may even have some
reverse roach in the leach. For non racing sails you probably don't care
much about the figures just that the curve is consistent & flows
smoothly, if it doesn't the sail may have been damaged & not properly
repaired or has been recut down from a larger size incorrectly (Believe
it of not some people just take bit off till it fits the new triangle:-))

Go for it you'll get much better miles per dollar than new & in an
accident caught on something in the middle of the night:-) you haven't
lost a hugely expensive sail.

K

Rhys,
I agree with your assessment. I need a new suite of sails. Where do I start
looking for stretched racing sails?
Do you have recommendations?
Steve

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:12:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

My problem is, I've been spoiled by nice racing rigs for too
long. But sailing, in any form, is pure enjoyment... try not
to get hung up on details.

That's true. The corollary to this, of course, is that a lot of nice
racing sails find new homes recut for cruisers at a fraction of the
price of new.

R.