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Old February 25th 07, 08:33 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System

In article ,
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
In writes:

One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman
system last year.


His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main
down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised.
It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully
tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought.


For the Dutchman to work properly you have to have the vertical parts
properly lined with the holes in the sail, the grommets big enough and
the rope smooth and the lenght of the chord you splice the vertical
parts must be such that when you ease the hallyard the weight of the
boom will make everything reasonably tight, not too tight. Then you hope
that the gravity will not fail you. :-).

Many conditions. If not properly set up, the gravity is not enough to
pull the sail down.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


Lauri, you're right... since I'm up at the mast when I drop the sail,
I do occasionally have to give the luff a yank or two to get it
going. And, I do usually have to give a flake a reset shake to get it
"in the grove."

FYI, the Charlie Morgan sockpuppet is a liar. I bought mine through
Quantum out here.


"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend on
the
payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a reduced
price.
Of course he thinks they are superior!

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com



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Old February 25th 07, 08:52 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:23:36 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

As a follow up, I should say that LJs are definitely preferable to not
having anything.


I agree with that, I think they're a big help getting the main under
control.

On my old Cal-34 we rigged something that I called "poor man's lazy
jacks". Basically they were just two pieces of 3/8ths shock cord run
along each side of the boom, each with a small loop tied in the middle
of the shock cord. When I wanted to use the "lazy jacks" I'd bring a
halyard aft around the shrouds on each side of the boat, clip each
halyard to the loop in the shock cord, and then hoist the halyard up
about 15 ft forming a triangle with the shock cord on each side of the
boom. It was very effective, cost next to nothing, and was out of the
way when you didn't need it.


Wayne, trying to picture this: You had separate LJ's on either side of the
boom, each with their own dedicated halyard? Pretty clever if that's it. I
like it. If I have to re-do Essie's LJ's some day, something like that might
be just the thing. :-)


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Old February 25th 07, 09:52 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System

wrote in message
...
One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman
system last year.

His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the
main down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised.
It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully
tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought.



There's a good chance it's not set up properly as far as the flaking goes.
Come down is probably some other issue.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



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Old February 26th 07, 12:40 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:52:35 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

Wayne, trying to picture this: You had separate LJ's on either side of the
boom, each with their own dedicated halyard? Pretty clever if that's it. I
like it. If I have to re-do Essie's LJ's some day, something like that might
be just the thing. :-)


The halyards were only dedicated during the time that the LJs were
needed, ie, during the mainsail drop. There were lots of spare
halyards available since we were set up for racing and doing headsail
changes on the fly. Once the mainsail was down and tied up, we'd ease
off on the LJ halyards and lead them back forward. The shock cord
would retract and lay flat against the boom until needed the next
time.

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Old February 26th 07, 01:35 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:52:35 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

Wayne, trying to picture this: You had separate LJ's on either side of the
boom, each with their own dedicated halyard? Pretty clever if that's it. I
like it. If I have to re-do Essie's LJ's some day, something like that
might
be just the thing. :-)


The halyards were only dedicated during the time that the LJs were
needed, ie, during the mainsail drop. There were lots of spare
halyards available since we were set up for racing and doing headsail
changes on the fly. Once the mainsail was down and tied up, we'd ease
off on the LJ halyards and lead them back forward. The shock cord
would retract and lay flat against the boom until needed the next
time.


Okay, gotcha. I've a couple of spare halyards foward of the mainmast --
spinnaker halyard (drifter, actually) and staysail halyard. I suppose they
could be used for that purpose, but they'd chafe with much use. And when I
need to douse or reef the main in a hurry, it's awfully nice to have the
LJ's there -- even if they're somewhat slack, without having to go forward
and rig them up.

But a couple of dedicated small halyards could be just the ticket, along
with your shock cord sollution. My boat is a tangle of lines for this, lines
for that, more lines for the other thing, with spares in case I might want
to do something else. But I sure do have a lot of options.




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Old February 26th 07, 01:47 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:52:32 -0500, Charlie Morgan said:

Jon is good friends with Conrad "Bart" Senior, who works for the Dutchman.


And both were no doubt acquaintances of Norman Thomas. Therefore the
Dutchman, Jon and Bart must all be Communists.

Wait..... Didn't that sort of reasoning go out with a fellah named
McCarthy.



Jeez... I haven't been called a Communist in years. g

What's with Chuckles? I guess he's POd because I plonked him.

BTW, Bart lives on the East coast. I live on the West coast. I wish I did
get an additional discount, but I did get a nice deal.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



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Old February 26th 07, 02:09 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System

In article ,
wrote:

One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman
system last year.

His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main
down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised.
It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully
tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought.



"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:42:44 GMT, wrote:

I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy
Jacks.
Why semi full batten?
Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks?


When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend on
the
payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a reduced
price.
Of course he thinks they are superior!

CWM


I would want to know what he has attaching the main to the mast. I have
some fancy Harken system that is smoother than a baby's b-tt. If there
is resistance along the luff, the dutchman cannot help.

harlan

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?
  #28   Report Post  
Old February 26th 07, 02:11 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System

In article ,
Charlie Morgan wrote:

On 25 Feb 2007 12:33:00 -0800, lid (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:

In article ,
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
In
writes:

One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman
system last year.

His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the
main
down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised.
It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully
tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought.

For the Dutchman to work properly you have to have the vertical parts
properly lined with the holes in the sail, the grommets big enough and
the rope smooth and the lenght of the chord you splice the vertical
parts must be such that when you ease the hallyard the weight of the
boom will make everything reasonably tight, not too tight. Then you hope
that the gravity will not fail you. :-).

Many conditions. If not properly set up, the gravity is not enough to
pull the sail down.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


Lauri, you're right... since I'm up at the mast when I drop the sail,
I do occasionally have to give the luff a yank or two to get it
going. And, I do usually have to give a flake a reset shake to get it
"in the grove."

FYI, the Charlie Morgan sockpuppet is a liar. I bought mine through
Quantum out here.


Jon is good friends with Conrad "Bart" Senior, who works for the Dutchman.
They
have discussed the Dutchman system in newsgroups, and Bart openly offered Jon
a
discount. Anyone who thinks I'm lying can go to the Dutchmans website and
find a
photo of Dutchman employee Bart Senior there. If Jon procured his Dutchman
system through Quantum it was done at a discount courtesy of Dutchman.

CWM



"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend on
the
payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a reduced
price.
Of course he thinks they are superior!


Charley, I have no association with the Dutchman, get nothing for my
posts or referrals and I love the darn thing. I have no problem raising
or lowering because we carefully aligned the lines on the topping lift
and got some fancy schmanzy system for slides on the mast.

So Jon may or may not be biased. But the system is a great thing for
performance sailors who want life to be simpler.

harlan

--
To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?
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Old February 26th 07, 02:57 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System

"Harlan Lachman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Charlie Morgan wrote:

On 25 Feb 2007 12:33:00 -0800, lid (Jonathan Ganz)
wrote:

In article ,
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
In
writes:

One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a
Dutchman
system last year.

His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get
the
main
down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised.
It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or
fully
tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought.

For the Dutchman to work properly you have to have the vertical parts
properly lined with the holes in the sail, the grommets big enough and
the rope smooth and the lenght of the chord you splice the vertical
parts must be such that when you ease the hallyard the weight of the
boom will make everything reasonably tight, not too tight. Then you
hope
that the gravity will not fail you. :-).

Many conditions. If not properly set up, the gravity is not enough to
pull the sail down.

- Lauri Tarkkonen


Lauri, you're right... since I'm up at the mast when I drop the sail,
I do occasionally have to give the luff a yank or two to get it
going. And, I do usually have to give a flake a reset shake to get it
"in the grove."

FYI, the Charlie Morgan sockpuppet is a liar. I bought mine through
Quantum out here.


Jon is good friends with Conrad "Bart" Senior, who works for the
Dutchman.
They
have discussed the Dutchman system in newsgroups, and Bart openly offered
Jon
a
discount. Anyone who thinks I'm lying can go to the Dutchmans website and
find a
photo of Dutchman employee Bart Senior there. If Jon procured his
Dutchman
system through Quantum it was done at a discount courtesy of Dutchman.

CWM



"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend
on
the
payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a
reduced
price.
Of course he thinks they are superior!


Charley, I have no association with the Dutchman, get nothing for my
posts or referrals and I love the darn thing. I have no problem raising
or lowering because we carefully aligned the lines on the topping lift
and got some fancy schmanzy system for slides on the mast.

So Jon may or may not be biased. But the system is a great thing for
performance sailors who want life to be simpler.



I'm biased because it works. I have no association with Dutchman. I wish I
did. Chuckles is a troll.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com



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Old February 26th 07, 04:43 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System


"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...

You are simply incorrect, Dave. Bart was roundly castigated in another
group by many people after he started a thread extolling the virtues
of the Dutchman System, and slamming the alternatives. He WORKS for
THE DUTCHMAN.

Bart also offered readers of that group a "deal" on the Dutchman
System, and Jon Ganz publically announced he was taking Bart up on his
offer. Bart and Jon are pals, and Bart has even visited Jon out in
California. We know that because Bart posted a public thank you to
Jon in that other forum.

How do you know what the normal royalty is for a Dutchman System?
Maybe it's half of the normal retail installed price. This isn't a
book or CD royalty of a dollar a copy. Jon has a cozy relationship
with an Employee of Dutchman and he got a special "insider deal" on
his system. I know you are also a personal friend of Bart's and have
gone sailing with him. He even helped you deliver your boat to winter
storage. So, really, your defense of Jon is as colored as his opinion
of the Dutchman System.

CWM


For what it's worth, if I'm in the market for a product and that product is
going to cost me the same amount whether I buy it from seller "A" or seller
"B," and seller "B" is a friend or aquaintance who will benefit from the
sale, I'll go with "B" every time.




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