In article . com,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote:

I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs,
e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity,
or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will
suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already
labor intensive project into something far more manageable.

I suspect it's like doing glue & nail in woodworking: The nails are
really there only to get a good bond; you could pull them after it's set
up. But you want a really good bond....

Agreement with KLC's assessment on the "cleanness" of the break. Rough
is better, polyester probably your best bet, fortified with something
strong that you can shoot in with, say, a caulk gun.

It does keep sounding better and better.

Just a thought that you might toss around: to get pressure on the
joints, you might intentionally put jackstands at those areas,
intentionally a bit too "tight"; the hull will probably flex outward
afterwards, pulling the bulkheads back in place.


--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Feb 13, 3:13 am, Jere Lull wrote:


Just a thought that you might toss around: to get pressure on the
joints, you might intentionally put jackstands at those areas,
intentionally a bit too "tight"; the hull will probably flex outward
afterwards, pulling the bulkheads back in place.


Excellent thought. So far what iI can see (pictures, soon, I promise!)
suggests it's already tight, as there's not a gap top/bottom of the
line where it used to be attached.

As to KLC's comment about reinforcement, if I could get to them all
the way, the discussion of shims/wedges wouldn't be necessary. And,
if I could get to them all the way, I'm enough of a belt and
suspenders man that I'd likely grind it off and put on new, building
up in exactly the same form as original (Pete provided me with the
type of cloth used). I can't see how adding wood over an existing tab,
and then going over it with FG/resin would improve matters; you're
relying on the existing part, and not connecting the new to the
bulkhead (I may not have a picture of what was intended, I realize).

Thanks for all the commentary and support, in whatever fashion. Today
it looks like we'll have a beater Suburban for use in transport and
hauling; I'll know for sure by the end of the day.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog


The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

Stamp out Sesquipedalianism
--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's NEW Pages:http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics)http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On 13 Feb 2007 07:24:57 -0800, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote:


Excellent thought. So far what iI can see (pictures, soon, I
promise!)


Hi Skip,

You'd better hurray or we will send Geoff out to beat you to the
scoop -

-Lee

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...

As to KLC's comment about reinforcement, if I could get to them all
the way, the discussion of shims/wedges wouldn't be necessary. And,
if I could get to them all the way, I'm enough of a belt and
suspenders man that I'd likely grind it off and put on new, building
up in exactly the same form as original (Pete provided me with the
type of cloth used). I can't see how adding wood over an existing tab,
and then going over it with FG/resin would improve matters; you're
relying on the existing part, and not connecting the new to the
bulkhead (I may not have a picture of what was intended, I realize).

Thanks for all the commentary and support, in whatever fashion. Today
it looks like we'll have a beater Suburban for use in transport and
hauling; I'll know for sure by the end of the day.

L8R

Skip

Skip,

My outline may have left out steps that I have clearly in mind, but didn't
translate into dots on the screen. The way I see it, yes -- you could grind
off all the old tabbing and install it new, but then you would have TWO
secondary/mechanical bonds, rather than the one secondary (tabbing to
bulkhead) and one primary (tabbing to hull, laid-up when the resin was still
fresh and molecularly active.

My method does rely upon glue (epoxy) between the bulkhead and old tabbing,
clamped together with the bolts and battens, all laminated together into one
thick tabbing. Unfortunately, if you don't have the access, you don't have
the access. So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough
without that access?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:00:08 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

My method does rely upon glue (epoxy) between the bulkhead and old tabbing,
clamped together with the bolts and battens

In addition to using epoxy resin (instead of polyester), I recommend
thickening the resin with chopped glass fibers to improve its
strength.

This is a difficult repair without having full access on at least one
side of the bulkhead.

In article , "KLC Lewis"
wrote:

So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough
without that access?

How could you ever know how strong it was?

You'll never reach 100% new as-built strength. But even if you did by some
chance, you'll never be able to KNOW exactly how strong the repair is.
You'll have to take her out in progressivly more stressful conditions and
each time there will be that knot in your gut. Will it take 5' seas? 6'
seas? 7' seas pounding for day after day? Even if it does, you'll not
know if the next wave will be the one. You'll crawl around in the bildge
after each short trip looking for problems that really can't be seen.
This is not what the dream was about.

No, it will never be a Morgan again. Not so that you can trust her just
because there is a long history of Morgans that are built just like her
that have proven themselves countless times. That was why you bought a
Morgan in the first place. The confidence that she'll be able to handle
anything the sea throws at her. That's gone for good now. There will
always be a nagging doubt. You'll live in fear of every new set of
conditions, only trusting her if conditions are just perfect, and they
never are. Over time your love for her will turn to hate just from this
nagging mistrust. You'll find more and more excuses to leave her at the
dock. Afraid each and every time you leave a port.

No, even a horse you dearly love should be put down when the time comes.
Do it swiftly and without regrets.

Good luck,
Paul

--

Remove Before Flight

Paul,

With all due respect, I must disagree with many aspects of your post.

To the question of "ever make it strong enough", I believe you will find
that many boat yards would be able to do so, and without any real doubt
about the quality of the final product. The question would be at what
cost, which may be high enough to abandon the project. But that is an
economic, not emotional decision.

In terms of technical abilities, if someone decided to "add" additional
bulkheads to an existing hull, there would be no problem doing so - and
most yards could handle this type of work and claim that the new
bulkheads were bonded as well or better than the original. They might
weigh significantly more, they might look worse, but technically it is
feasible (if more difficult) to rebond to existing fiberglass.

In this case, it may be necessary to do something quite like that.
Whether the expense of doing so makes sense would be for the owner to
determine, but from an engineering standpoint I don't believe there is
anything we've heard that contradicts this approach.

As to "never reach 100% new as-built strength", I don't quite understand
what this means. Are you suggesting that the manufacturer's "as built"
product is as strong as it could ever possibly be, and that any
modification would necessarily detract from this idealized value?

Boat builders, even Morgans, don't always build "as strong as it could
possibly be" because there are other factors to consider, such as cost,
design constraints, weight ratios, flex, etc. Some engineer or
architect (more likely some manager or accountant) decided exactly how
strong they could get away with making something and still sell it to
their target market. It could always have been built better, but they
didn't believe the customer would pay more for it. Again, this is an
issue of cost. The practical limit on upper strength could always be
improved in just about any vessel ever made.

Testing the repair can be done in a number of ways, but it would not
require the "knot in your gut" feelings you describe, nor the numerous
sea trials of increasing magnitude. The owner can hire engineers to
examine the work and bench test it, and delivery captains (the test
pilots of the sea) to see how she performs under load. It would not be
difficult to determine how well the joints held, or if there was any
leakage. It is simply a matter of the cost of arranging it.

Your statement that "this was not what the dream was about" is also
highly suspect. Unless it was your dream (and my understanding was that
it was Skip & his wife's, and they did not appoint you as their dream
adviser) then who are you to presume to make this claim? Perhaps
shouldering on after a difficult setback is exactly what their dream was
about? Do you know this? Did you ask them?

Furthermore, your prognosis that "your love for her will turn to hate
just from this nagging mistrust" seems awfully well informed about the
owner's psyche. How well do you know him? Have you had long
conversations with him about his feelings around this situation? Are
you basing this on some expert opinion on human dynamics? Where is the
data or rational to support this claim? Personally, it sounds like your
own fears and prejudices bleeding through here under the guise of a
disinterested third party offering unsolicited technical advise.

Perhaps knowing how well the boat stood up to a pounding in the first
place really impressed the owner and gave him great respect for the
innate quality of the construction. Perhaps knowing how well the boat
was repaired and tested would give him even greater confidence and trust
in his boat. Maybe this experience will make him an even better sailor
and better able to avoid ever placing his newly repaired boat in harms
way again.

Or maybe he'll decide that it isn't cost effective to try again with
this particular hull, because the price of repairing the damage makes it
more feasible to start again with another vessel. In either case, I
don't think "nagging doubt" should be the determining factor, but cost
should. Spinning the emotional slant doesn't seem appropriate or
justifiable here.

Robb




Paul wrote:
In article , "KLC Lewis"
wrote:


So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough
without that access?


How could you ever know how strong it was?

You'll never reach 100% new as-built strength. But even if you did by some
chance, you'll never be able to KNOW exactly how strong the repair is.
You'll have to take her out in progressivly more stressful conditions and
each time there will be that knot in your gut. Will it take 5' seas? 6'
seas? 7' seas pounding for day after day? Even if it does, you'll not
know if the next wave will be the one. You'll crawl around in the bildge
after each short trip looking for problems that really can't be seen.
This is not what the dream was about.

No, it will never be a Morgan again. Not so that you can trust her just
because there is a long history of Morgans that are built just like her
that have proven themselves countless times. That was why you bought a
Morgan in the first place. The confidence that she'll be able to handle
anything the sea throws at her. That's gone for good now. There will
always be a nagging doubt. You'll live in fear of every new set of
conditions, only trusting her if conditions are just perfect, and they
never are. Over time your love for her will turn to hate just from this
nagging mistrust. You'll find more and more excuses to leave her at the
dock. Afraid each and every time you leave a port.

No, even a horse you dearly love should be put down when the time comes.
Do it swiftly and without regrets.

Good luck,
Paul

One issue that hasn't been discussed is that eventually this boat will be
sold again and do you think that the new owner will have faith in the work
which has been done? You might do the greatest job in the world and build
it stronger than it was from the factory, but that doesn't mean that you'll
be able to convice the next buyer of that.

To me this is no different than buying a car that was involved in a major
accident. It will never be the same. Maybe some parts will be better than
new, but there will be things that get missed or re-done wrong.

As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull.
That would be throwing good money after bad.

-- Geoff

On Feb 14, 5:51 am, Geoff Schultz wrote:

One issue that hasn't been discussed is that eventually this boat will be
sold again and do you think that the new owner will have faith in the work
which has been done?

To me this is no different than buying a car that was involved in a major
accident.

As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull.
That would be throwing good money after bad.

-- Geoff


Hi G:
I cast my vote in your camp. And this is from a guy who has two
subscibtions: This Old House and Old House Journal. I have rebuilt a
1962 Dodge Dart, my now 1905 house and looking at a rehab on my mom's
place built in 1886. That one will be a toatal gut to the studs. I
know the impoortance of rebuilding and making better.

But Skips bills and unknown expenses are just starting to roll in.
Latest is $500 per week yard stay. And yes, unless he plans an
insurance scuttle in a few years one google search for Flying Pig will
reveal to all the crash and 'repair' story. That boat would really
need to be a give away for someone to buy it in 5-10 years. If the
table was turned, do you think Skip would buy the Pig when he was in
search of his dream boat after learning of the boat's crash and repair
history....?

My vote: take the money........... walk away............. go
sailing .. in a Cascade 28' tomorrow.
Bob

On Feb 14, 7:51 am, Geoff Schultz wrote:
One issue that hasn't been discussed is that eventually this boat will be
sold again and do you think that the new owner will have faith in the work
which has been done? You might do the greatest job in the world and build
it stronger than it was from the factory, but that doesn't mean that you'll
be able to convice the next buyer of that.

To me this is no different than buying a car that was involved in a major
accident. It will never be the same. Maybe some parts will be better than
new, but there will be things that get missed or re-done wrong.

As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull.
That would be throwing good money after bad.

-- Geoff

I agree, collect the insurance, and go find a steel hull.

Joe