Paul,

With all due respect, I must disagree with many aspects of your post.

To the question of "ever make it strong enough", I believe you will find
that many boat yards would be able to do so, and without any real doubt
about the quality of the final product. The question would be at what
cost, which may be high enough to abandon the project. But that is an
economic, not emotional decision.

In terms of technical abilities, if someone decided to "add" additional
bulkheads to an existing hull, there would be no problem doing so - and
most yards could handle this type of work and claim that the new
bulkheads were bonded as well or better than the original. They might
weigh significantly more, they might look worse, but technically it is
feasible (if more difficult) to rebond to existing fiberglass.

In this case, it may be necessary to do something quite like that.
Whether the expense of doing so makes sense would be for the owner to
determine, but from an engineering standpoint I don't believe there is
anything we've heard that contradicts this approach.

As to "never reach 100% new as-built strength", I don't quite understand
what this means. Are you suggesting that the manufacturer's "as built"
product is as strong as it could ever possibly be, and that any
modification would necessarily detract from this idealized value?

Boat builders, even Morgans, don't always build "as strong as it could
possibly be" because there are other factors to consider, such as cost,
design constraints, weight ratios, flex, etc. Some engineer or
architect (more likely some manager or accountant) decided exactly how
strong they could get away with making something and still sell it to
their target market. It could always have been built better, but they
didn't believe the customer would pay more for it. Again, this is an
issue of cost. The practical limit on upper strength could always be
improved in just about any vessel ever made.

Testing the repair can be done in a number of ways, but it would not
require the "knot in your gut" feelings you describe, nor the numerous
sea trials of increasing magnitude. The owner can hire engineers to
examine the work and bench test it, and delivery captains (the test
pilots of the sea) to see how she performs under load. It would not be
difficult to determine how well the joints held, or if there was any
leakage. It is simply a matter of the cost of arranging it.

Your statement that "this was not what the dream was about" is also
highly suspect. Unless it was your dream (and my understanding was that
it was Skip & his wife's, and they did not appoint you as their dream
adviser) then who are you to presume to make this claim? Perhaps
shouldering on after a difficult setback is exactly what their dream was
about? Do you know this? Did you ask them?

Furthermore, your prognosis that "your love for her will turn to hate
just from this nagging mistrust" seems awfully well informed about the
owner's psyche. How well do you know him? Have you had long
conversations with him about his feelings around this situation? Are
you basing this on some expert opinion on human dynamics? Where is the
data or rational to support this claim? Personally, it sounds like your
own fears and prejudices bleeding through here under the guise of a
disinterested third party offering unsolicited technical advise.

Perhaps knowing how well the boat stood up to a pounding in the first
place really impressed the owner and gave him great respect for the
innate quality of the construction. Perhaps knowing how well the boat
was repaired and tested would give him even greater confidence and trust
in his boat. Maybe this experience will make him an even better sailor
and better able to avoid ever placing his newly repaired boat in harms
way again.

Or maybe he'll decide that it isn't cost effective to try again with
this particular hull, because the price of repairing the damage makes it
more feasible to start again with another vessel. In either case, I
don't think "nagging doubt" should be the determining factor, but cost
should. Spinning the emotional slant doesn't seem appropriate or
justifiable here.

Robb




Paul wrote:
In article , "KLC Lewis"
wrote:


So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough
without that access?


How could you ever know how strong it was?

You'll never reach 100% new as-built strength. But even if you did by some
chance, you'll never be able to KNOW exactly how strong the repair is.
You'll have to take her out in progressivly more stressful conditions and
each time there will be that knot in your gut. Will it take 5' seas? 6'
seas? 7' seas pounding for day after day? Even if it does, you'll not
know if the next wave will be the one. You'll crawl around in the bildge
after each short trip looking for problems that really can't be seen.
This is not what the dream was about.

No, it will never be a Morgan again. Not so that you can trust her just
because there is a long history of Morgans that are built just like her
that have proven themselves countless times. That was why you bought a
Morgan in the first place. The confidence that she'll be able to handle
anything the sea throws at her. That's gone for good now. There will
always be a nagging doubt. You'll live in fear of every new set of
conditions, only trusting her if conditions are just perfect, and they
never are. Over time your love for her will turn to hate just from this
nagging mistrust. You'll find more and more excuses to leave her at the
dock. Afraid each and every time you leave a port.

No, even a horse you dearly love should be put down when the time comes.
Do it swiftly and without regrets.

Good luck,
Paul

One issue that hasn't been discussed is that eventually this boat will be
sold again and do you think that the new owner will have faith in the work
which has been done? You might do the greatest job in the world and build
it stronger than it was from the factory, but that doesn't mean that you'll
be able to convice the next buyer of that.

To me this is no different than buying a car that was involved in a major
accident. It will never be the same. Maybe some parts will be better than
new, but there will be things that get missed or re-done wrong.

As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull.
That would be throwing good money after bad.

-- Geoff

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com:

Wish us luck (I know, you already do - we're overwhelmed with support,


Sure are a lot of Morgan 46s for sale in S Florida after the insurance
company totals it.....

Larry
--
VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released!
NOONE will be spared!

"While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard
bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands."

That is NUTS! What the hell kind of **** is this?

Call a boat hauler, talk to someone who has a yard ( not boatyard, just a
yard, yard ) and get the boat hauled over to that yard.

If I lived nearby, I would let you use my yard to get that boat back on its
feet.

You really need to get off your A.. and get that boat out of where it is.

This is starting to **** me off.

=========================

"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com...
Of little interest to most, I'm sure, but I, of the curious mind,
wonder:

What, indeed, were the winds out there that night? In the harsh light
of day I see:

The Davis wind indicator has lost one leg entirely, and the tab from
the other.
The hailer horn, newly installed, blew off.
The KISS wind generator, also newly installed, left behind only a
blackened stump and a length of wire.

What sort of speed is required to cause those departures?

Surely, based on experience of those in the know, not enough to blow
us off course, but enough to do some damage, apparently.

I'm sure glad the radar antenna didn't follow the horn mounted below
it - apparently it was more aerodynamic and/or more stoutly
mounted...

Meanwhile, the yard has had its first look; it appears as though - if
they care to bid on it at all - it will be strictly time and
materials.

While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard
bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands.

I'm beginning to consider a tow back to the yard where we were, as, if
this is to be saved, it nearly certainly won't be by the yard here
doing the work - I have little doubt the policy limits would be
exceeded very quickly, and besides, I expect the insurance company
will require firm quotes, which, to protect themselves, the yard will
make astronomical.

Where we were, we can be stored and worked on for less than 1/6 the
yard cost here. If it turns out to be many months, that's many
thousands difference in what will inevitably be out-of-pocket expenses
- which we currently have no concept of how to find.

And, at least up there, we have some "community" having worked on the
boat for the last three years there.

I'm going to make a concerted effort tomorrow, following conversations
with a surveyor who is also a morgan owner, and has recommended
various tradespeople to us, to get individual contractors' opinions
about the method of attack, as well as the anticipated end cost. If it
can possibly be done here, in the parameters of the insurance
coverage, we'll go for it.

If it's way over, but, say, less than double, likely we'll pull it
back to St. Pete, as I am confident we can find competent tradespeople
there at comparable or less cost, but save 5k every three months in
yard bills, money sorely needed to make repairs...

Wish us luck (I know, you already do - we're overwhelmed with support,
for which we are without words, as they're simply inadequate,
including, today, another morgan owner giving us his suburban he no
longer needed, for us to haul the inevitable huge amount of supplies
for our refit)...

L8R

Skip and Lydia

--
Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery!
Follow us at and


"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things
you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines.
Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails.
Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

"NE Sailboat" wrote:

"While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard
bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands."

That is NUTS! What the hell kind of **** is this?

Call a boat hauler, talk to someone who has a yard ( not boatyard, just a
yard, yard ) and get the boat hauled over to that yard.

If I lived nearby, I would let you use my yard to get that boat back on its
feet.

You really need to get off your A.. and get that boat out of where it is.

This is starting to **** me off.
The Keys, especially in the winter are horribly expensive. They hired
a HS principal for the Marathon HS and he turned the job down because
at the salary they could pay, he couldn't afford housing for his
family. They charge because they can. Key's Boatworks is actually
one of the less expensive ones. It might be cheaper by the month.

In 2003 we paid $18/ft (for the month when you included taxes because
the published rate was $16) for a slip in Marathon which included 2
pumpouts a month and electric was 10 cents/kwh and water was 3 cents a
gallon and there is a minimum monthly charge for both water and
electric. So the basic slip charge was $900 for the month plus water
and electric. And that was 3 years ago.

I can't find out what the costs are in the Marathon Boatyard (in Boot
Key Harbor)

Incidentally, we were going to buy a car (a conch cruiser) but all the
upfront costs (they charge extra if you've not registered a car in
Florida before) added so much to the cost that it was cheaper to rent.
Otherwise, we used bikes. Marathon is pretty flat and easy to ride a
bike in.

On Feb 14, 5:51 am, Geoff Schultz wrote:

One issue that hasn't been discussed is that eventually this boat will be
sold again and do you think that the new owner will have faith in the work
which has been done?

To me this is no different than buying a car that was involved in a major
accident.

As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull.
That would be throwing good money after bad.

-- Geoff


Hi G:
I cast my vote in your camp. And this is from a guy who has two
subscibtions: This Old House and Old House Journal. I have rebuilt a
1962 Dodge Dart, my now 1905 house and looking at a rehab on my mom's
place built in 1886. That one will be a toatal gut to the studs. I
know the impoortance of rebuilding and making better.

But Skips bills and unknown expenses are just starting to roll in.
Latest is $500 per week yard stay. And yes, unless he plans an
insurance scuttle in a few years one google search for Flying Pig will
reveal to all the crash and 'repair' story. That boat would really
need to be a give away for someone to buy it in 5-10 years. If the
table was turned, do you think Skip would buy the Pig when he was in
search of his dream boat after learning of the boat's crash and repair
history....?

My vote: take the money........... walk away............. go
sailing .. in a Cascade 28' tomorrow.
Bob

My vote: take the money........... walk away............. go
sailing .. in a Cascade 28' tomorrow.
Bob



To my knowledge, Cascade doesn't make a 28!
G
S/V Genesis Cascade 27

Charlie Morgan wrote:

up. Those here who have some skills and experience in these things will know
that it's not magic to make something better when you rebuild it. You observe
why something failed, and you figure out how to make it better.

CWM

Well hell Charlie, what's yer hourly rate?
I'm bringing all my reef wrecks to you from now on

Nite,
Paul


It's clear you couldn't afford me.

CWM

Hell, I couldn't afford myself if I had to pay me

Don W.

Skip Gundlach wrote:

While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard
bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands.

I'm beginning to consider a tow back to the yard where we were, as, if
this is to be saved, it nearly certainly won't be by the yard here
doing the work - I have little doubt the policy limits would be
exceeded very quickly, and besides, I expect the insurance company
will require firm quotes, which, to protect themselves, the yard will
make astronomical.

Where we were, we can be stored and worked on for less than 1/6 the
yard cost here. If it turns out to be many months, that's many
thousands difference in what will inevitably be out-of-pocket expenses
- which we currently have no concept of how to find.

And, at least up there, we have some "community" having worked on the
boat for the last three years there.

Skip,

You should strongly consider having the boat
trucked back to your original yard. I've got an
acquaintance here in Texas who has a truck and
special trailer for hauling sailboats. I was
quite surprised how inexpensive it would be to
have our 38' sailboat trucked the three hour drive
from the coast to Austin. Check around to see who
does it in Florida.

If they are charging you $500/week to sit on the
hard, I'd get that sucker out of there the day
after tomorrow!!

A month of that will pay the trucking costs to get
you back where you were, or to some other yard
that is reasonable.

If you don't want to go back to where you were,
here is a link to other Florida yards.

http://www.magicyellow.com/category/...-State_FL.html

Truck it out, get it on blocks somewhere
reasonable, and then figure out what else to do.

Good luck,

Don W.

On Feb 14, 12:40 pm, Gordon wrote:
My vote: take the money........... walk away............. go
sailing .. in a Cascade 28' tomorrow.
Bob

To my knowledge, Cascade doesn't make a 28!
G
S/V Genesis Cascade 27

My appology. Thank you for the correction.
Bewildered BOb