In Heikki writes:

Peter wrote:

Both variants are legal and it depends on the use case. Tail outside is
better, if you have to fix it e.g. around a pole.

But depends on traditions, which kind of bowline (tail inside/outside)
is the correct one

So, could someone explain what the differences are, in practical terms?
How to make a qualified decision which style to use?

I do not believe that there is any serious difference, but if you asked
the German military of merchant navy some 60 years ago, the other would
say, that the other is useless and should never be used and the other
would have the explanation reversed. :-)

The strongest opinions relate to things that do not make any difference.


- Lauri Tarkkonen

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:31:21 +0100, Heikki wrote:

Peter wrote:

Both variants are legal and it depends on the use case. Tail outside is
better, if you have to fix it e.g. around a pole.

But depends on traditions, which kind of bowline (tail inside/outside)
is the correct one

So, could someone explain what the differences are, in practical terms?
How to make a qualified decision which style to use?

-Heikki

When using a bowline to attach jib sheets to the sail, the "tail
inside" version is alleged to be less likely to hang up on the shrouds
as you tack.

There is also a slight possibility that if the "tail outside" version
gets stuck on something, the tail may be pulled back and upset the
knot.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
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On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:31:21 +0100, Heikki wrote:

Peter wrote:

Both variants are legal and it depends on the use case. Tail outside is
better, if you have to fix it e.g. around a pole.

But depends on traditions, which kind of bowline (tail inside/outside)
is the correct one

So, could someone explain what the differences are, in practical terms?
How to make a qualified decision which style to use?

Some of the post seem to indicate that it's based on sexual
orientation ;-)

-Heikki

BarelyAwake schreef:

This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat.
...
still tied up inside the boom.



the bowline

what might be different for you:
this one is tied with the bitter end sticking out of the bend

some say this is the 'dutch bowline'
and indeed, in dutch instructions, this form sometimes shows up
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paalsteek

in english texts it is mentioned as the wrong bowline
although there are instructions for this form where it is the only
bowline:
http://www.dougpile.com/mac19/p3.html

knot wrong,

Ben

As for the hitch inside the boom http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg
I'll be the first one. I am sure that if I am wrong I will be corrected by
some of the old timers.

I cannot see too deep inside the boom. With what I am able to see at the
end of the boom this knot resembles a
"Bowline on a bight". Some time I use it when a rope is too long and I do
not want to cut it but rather shortening it
See the following link and tell me what you think?
http://www.animatedknots.com/bowline... tedknots.com

"BarelyAwake" wrote in message
...
This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic
sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't
recognize this one. Can someone identify it?

The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the
hitch, still tied up inside the boom.

http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg

TIA for any assistance.

I agree that it is a Dutch bowline. I tied one and compared it to the
original and they match.

The way the line is run is as follows. The outhaul enters the boom, goes
through a block (which is attached to a cable shackeled to the sail), then
the end of the line is tied to the padeye in the boom. It results in 2:1
purchase on the outhaul.

It looks like the bowline has held well for a long time, but with the bad
press that the bowline gets for loosening when the load is removed, I wonder
if I might be better off using a buntline hitch instead. I don't want to
have to take the boom apart again because the knot came untied. As a mtter
of fact, I am even thinking about putting an exit plate on the boom and
tying the line to a padeye on the outside. I just can't understand why they
built the boom with and inaccessible line.


wrote in message
...
As for the hitch inside the boom http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg
I'll be the first one. I am sure that if I am wrong I will be corrected
by some of the old timers.

I cannot see too deep inside the boom. With what I am able to see at the
end of the boom this knot resembles a
"Bowline on a bight". Some time I use it when a rope is too long and I do
not want to cut it but rather shortening it
See the following link and tell me what you think?
http://www.animatedknots.com/bowline... tedknots.com

"BarelyAwake" wrote in message
...
This hitch is on the inside of the boom of my boat. I know some basic
sailing knots, and I tried find this in a book of knots, but I don't
recognize this one. Can someone identify it?

The 2 links are to photos showing both the front and back sides of the
hitch, still tied up inside the boom.

http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/2ypey3a.jpg

TIA for any assistance.

BarelyAwake wrote:
I agree that it is a Dutch bowline. I tied one and compared it to the
original and they match.

The way the line is run is as follows. The outhaul enters the boom, goes
through a block (which is attached to a cable shackeled to the sail), then
the end of the line is tied to the padeye in the boom. It results in 2:1
purchase on the outhaul.

It looks like the bowline has held well for a long time, but with the bad
press that the bowline gets for loosening when the load is removed, I wonder
if I might be better off using a buntline hitch instead. I don't want to
have to take the boom apart again because the knot came untied. As a mtter
of fact, I am even thinking about putting an exit plate on the boom and
tying the line to a padeye on the outside. I just can't understand why they
built the boom with and inaccessible line.

I use a buntline hitch almost everywhere for lines like the outhaul,
reef lines, lazyjacks, etc. I learned it as the stuns'l tackbend and
have had very good experiences with it. The one problem is that it
can be difficult to untie, although if you have full access it can be
teased apart.

However, in this case, it looks like the hitch would slide into the
boom an would be impossible to untie. The bowline, however, will be
easy to pick apart when the time comes. Although a bowline can be
"flopped open" in an application like a jib sheet, I have trouble
seeing how that could happen in this case where the outhaul spends
almost its entire life under constant load. Moreover, the
consequences of that failure are pretty minimal.

FWIW, bowline failures are quite rare - while its often discussed few
people can offer a recent example. I use bowlines on my jib sheets
because a buntline would be too big and would present a danger.

It looks like this is a proper setup; I wouldn't change it at all.
From the looks of it, the line hasn't suffered at all.

Its a 'reverse' bowline
Very weak and can 'trip'


In article , BarelyAwake
wrote:

http://i17.tinypic.com/2mm6z9z.jpg

and indeed, in dutch instructions, this form sometimes shows up

And in English instructions, too. From one Dutch knot tyer I read
that the two forms are known--in parlance but not in the literature--
as, roughly translated, Naval & Merchant Naval ("Marine"?).

e.g.: In the 19th century for the German navy the correct bowline
was tail outside, while for the german mercantile marine the
correct bowline was tail inside.

Peter, where'd you learn this? --sounds much like my source
re the Dutch, and as Dutch/German are so close, I think one
or the other has it wrong (and I just noticed one mistake re
"respectively" in my source, so ...).

in english texts it is mentioned as the wrong bowline
---
Its a 'reverse' bowline Very weak and can 'trip'

There is so much silly stuff re knots! These knots have
been tested in kernmantle ropes and found to be of equal
strength--though with each there is a range of dressing
and orientation that might affect such strength. As for
"trip"ing, if anything the common Bowline is more
vulnerable to capsizing, as the part of the knot to turn
over--i.e., the nipping loop in the standing part--will
have begun this by pulling the end in that direction
(whereas in the end-outside bowline the corresponding
part will bear load).

with the bad press that the bowline gets for loosening
when the load is removed, I wonder if I might be better
off using a buntline hitch instead.
---
FWIW, bowline failures are quite rare - while its often
discussed few people can offer a recent example

It would help the understanding were such knot failures
(and successes--"behavior", either way) presented as
behavior ***of a material so knotted***,
and NOT of a *knot* (which means a schema for making
some physical entity). In rockclimbing kernmantle nylon
ropes--which are considerably firmer/stiffer than the
yachting double-braid shown here, a bowline can loosen
readily and come untied--from jiggling, or by capsizing
upon a fall. Black Diamond Equipment's recent catalogue
featured the story of one of their employees who suffered
this fate (and is recovering). No amount of success in
using bowlines in material-X can influence how things
to in material-W.

--dl*
====

Sorry, I lost the attribution to this

FWIW, bowline failures are quite rare - while its often
discussed few people can offer a recent example


But I saw a bowline failure last weekend! My knife lanyard is tied with a
duobled figure-8 knot to the knife, and the other end is left straight.
When rigging down our ship, I tied the other end to a loop in my pocket
with a bowline. I kept the knife in my jacket pocket (folded) on my right
side, and lanyard was tied to an upper pocket on the left. When ever I
needed the knife, I could just grab the lanyard and yank it out of the
pocket. This produced a load pattern with the line slack most of the time,
with some hard pulls in between. After about two hours I suddenly realised
that the bowline had come undone. The line was regular white flag line,
double-braided, about 3mm thick.

I don't know the name of the improved bowline I used for reattaching the
lanyard, but that held for the rest of the day. (googling shows a water
bowline that looks quite much like what I did)


- Heikki