I was considering buying a pair of ascenders instead of a bosun's chair. I
went to the local outdoor place and the sales guy said that the ascenders
are not made for descending, that I should buy a descender to get back down
the mast. Why would an ascender not be appropriate in either direction?
Maybe a mountain climber might be able to descend faster with a descender,
but I can't see why I couldn't use the ascenders to get back down. Does
anyone have recommendations on specific hardware brands?
Thanks.

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:33:16 -0600, "BarelyAwake"
wrote:

I was considering buying a pair of ascenders instead of a bosun's chair. I
went to the local outdoor place and the sales guy said that the ascenders
are not made for descending, that I should buy a descender to get back down
the mast. Why would an ascender not be appropriate in either direction?
Maybe a mountain climber might be able to descend faster with a descender,
but I can't see why I couldn't use the ascenders to get back down. Does
anyone have recommendations on specific hardware brands?
Thanks.

I use ascendes *and* a bosun's chair. I attach the chair to the upper
ascender and it goes up with me.

You don't need descenders. You can use the ascender to descend.
Descending with ascenders is slow and just about as difficult as
ascending. Descenders make it easier and faster. Descenders are for
where you're going to descend a long way, much longer than the height
of the average mast.

The only way I can see descenders being worth it is if you have to go
up with the boat rocking in a seaway. But in those conditions, I
would never use a single rope with ascenders anyway. For that, you
want mast steps or something similar where you can concentrate on
holding on to the mast instead of operating the ascenders.

I use a length 1/2" mountain climbing rope that I got at REI, haul it
up with a halyard and use Petzl ascenders with a bosun's chair. Attach
the upper ascender to the chair, and a loop for your feet to the lower
ascender. And you can sit down while climbing and when you get to
where you want to be.

Steve

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:33:16 -0600, "BarelyAwake"
wrote:

I was considering buying a pair of ascenders instead of a bosun's chair. I
went to the local outdoor place and the sales guy said that the ascenders
are not made for descending, that I should buy a descender to get back down
the mast. Why would an ascender not be appropriate in either direction?
Maybe a mountain climber might be able to descend faster with a descender,
but I can't see why I couldn't use the ascenders to get back down. Does
anyone have recommendations on specific hardware brands?
Thanks.


I use ascenders to go up the mast and the merchant is somewhat
correct. ascenders are designed to climb up a rope so all you have to
do is slide them upward, the cam automatically loosens its grip on the
rope and then tightens when you put force on it. To go down you have
to move it upward slightly to loosen the grip and then pull on the cam
to keep it open while you slide it downward. It can be done but it
not quite as easy as going up.

A second problem is the stretch in the halyard that you are climbing.
It needs to be very tight or the strech will cause problems going up
or down.

I climb on the mail halyard and use the spinaker halyard attached to a
climbing harness as a safety belay. The other end is around one of
the primary winchs. When I finish the job I transfer my body weight
to the spinaker halyard and have an assistant lower me on that line.
they don't have to be strong enought to lift me as they merely let the
rope slip around the winch.

Its the best and most secure way I've found to go up the mast without
having a strong person to winch me up.

bill

Bill Deutschman, PhD Providing Laser Safety Training,
Oregon Laser Consultants Safety Audits, Computer Safety
455 Hillside Avenue Programs and CDRH Certification
Klamath Falls OR 97601-2337 for Laser Users.
541.882.3295

"BarelyAwake" wrote in message
...
I was considering buying a pair of ascenders instead of a bosun's chair. I
went to the local outdoor place and the sales guy said that the ascenders
are not made for descending, that I should buy a descender to get back down
the mast. Why would an ascender not be appropriate in either direction?
Maybe a mountain climber might be able to descend faster with a descender,
but I can't see why I couldn't use the ascenders to get back down. Does
anyone have recommendations on specific hardware brands?
Thanks.

Ascendeurs are intended for ascent rather than descent, because of the way
the locking cam is designed. To slide the device on ascent, you release
pressure/load on the device, then slide it up the rope, then reinstating
the load automatically locks the cam. On descent, the operator must
physically click the cam to unlock, slide the device down, then unclick the
cam to allow it to lock again once load is placed upon it. Clearly, descent
is possible, but it is prone to operator error, much, much more so than
ascent.

It is important to recognise that use of ascendeurs is liable to operator
error, going up or down. For that reason, an additional rope to hold the
operator in case of a slip of ascendeur(s), or other failure of gear, is
vital in my opinion.

I sail singlehanded and want the safest possible arrangement for going
aloft, alone. I use a pair of ascendeurs, each on separate halyards. A third
rope, usually my climbing rope, is my backup: it passes through a Petzl
Grigri clipped to my harness. This is a cunning device that allows the rope
to pass easily one way, but locks the instant a load is placed on it.As I go
up, the rope passes through it, if I fall, or want to take a rest, placing
my weight on the device locks it. When I want to come down, I can use it as
a descendeur.....it has a lever which allows controlled release of the rope.
If the operator should let go of the release lever, the Grigri locks up
again. A few carabiners are required to make the whole arrangement work
properly.

A couple of my single handed mates have seen this arrangement, and have
promptly got their own.

Bosun's chairs have been around for a long while, however, as a climber, I
cringe when I see them being used alone to support the operator. I like to
see a backup rope, I like to see an arrangement where the operator cannot
fall backwards out of the chair and slip right out of it. If the operator is
being winched up by a deckhand, I like to see an arrangement whereby the
operator can rescue himself should the deckhand walk off and leave him, or
whatever.

As to brands, I think it comes to personal choice. I have used a few,
perhaps the Kong fits my big hands a bit better.

Whatever setup you go for, I recommend that you get an experienced climber
to run his/her eyes over it, if at all possible.

Lee Martin

Thanks, guys, for your input. I had intended to use one of the halyards as
a safety belay. I've seen photos of men at the top of a mast, held by one
line and no backup. This seems foolish, especially considering that there
is always another halyard just sitting there, waiting to be used as a
backup. I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a
primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair
to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a
great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a
try.

BarelyAwake wrote:
Thanks, guys, for your input. I had intended to use one of the halyards as
a safety belay. I've seen photos of men at the top of a mast, held by one
line and no backup. This seems foolish, especially considering that there
is always another halyard just sitting there, waiting to be used as a
backup. I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a
primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's chair
to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender seems like a
great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll give these methods a
try.

Having climbed miles of rope and descended the same (during caving) and
also climbed my mast quite a few times, I offer the following. You do
not want a descender, the probability of making a mistake in going from
ascending to descending is too great. You CAN use ascenders to descend
but as someone else pointed, they are spring loaded so that you must
reach down and hold the cam open while you push it down. You also have
to make sure you dont push it too far down. There is nothing like
trying to put your weight on a sling that is too far down.
Instead, I suggest the use of Prusik knots. They are free and work
very well. To ascend, you slide the knot up and it will rarely slide
back down unless you "break" the knot first. When you "break" the knot
to descend, they grab quickly when you put your weight on them. I
suggest the use of three knots instead of two. You should have two
prusiks on your chair for safety. This is true even when using
mechanical ascenders. With only two ascenders, if your chair ascender
fails, you can ebd up hanging by your heels, uncomfortable and fatal if
you have nobody to let you down.
Any site about vertical caving can give you pointers about making your
own prusiks and ascender safety. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use a back-up
rope (the other halyard). Your halyard has been there for probably
years going over that sheave. Do you really want to trust your life
only to it?

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Instead, I suggest the use of Prusik knots. They are free and work
very well.

I like the free part. I haven't heard of Prusik knots. I will certainly
check them out.

Your halyard has been there for probably
years going over that sheave. Do you really want to trust your life
only to it?

I agree. I would not entrust my life to a 10 year old halyard. I am
replacing all the lines before I make the first ascent, and I do have an
assistant on the deck to assist me.

Frogwatch wrote: ...
Instead, I suggest the use of Prusik knots. They are free and work
very well. ...

I tried prusiks once but they seemed to take a lot of effort to ascend
and they are grippy up and down so I couldn't get one to follow me up a
halyard as a back-up the way I can with a cam device. I suspect there
is some technique that I didn't grok.

My current rig for going up the mast unassisted is a 3 part tackle with
a ratchet block (ratchet with bail at the bottom and fiddle at the top
tail comes down from the mast head). The ratchet really makes it easy
to rest and I find ascending easier and quicker than with cam devices
or prusiks. I have a cam that I attach to a spare halyard set up as a
static line to catch me if I faint or something...

Does rigging the tackle like this give you a 6:1 purchase __as you
ascend__? I think it does, but have had trouble convincing the crowd
around here.

-- Tom.

"BarelyAwake" wrote in
:

I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a
primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's
chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender
seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll
give these methods a try.


Screw that! The Bosun's Chair needs to be attached to the powered anchor
windlass for us "lazy, middle-aged man like me"! I press this button, he
goes up. I press this button he comes down.

I suppose I could mark one "Ascender" and the other "Decender", saving
several thousand dollars on custom mountain climbing equipment in the
process....(c;

It can even lift my heavy ass, right to the top, without a sweat!

Larry
--
Why is it, in any city, all traffic lights act as if they have rotary
timers in them, like they did in 1955, and are all set to create
maximum inconvenience and block traffic movement, entirely?

Larry wrote:
"BarelyAwake" wrote in
:

I like the idea having the harness or bosun's chair attached to a
primary winch serving as a method of descent. Attaching the bosun's
chair to one ascender and a loop for the feet to the other ascender
seems like a great idea for a lazy, middle-aged man like me! I'll
give these methods a try.


Screw that! The Bosun's Chair needs to be attached to the powered anchor
windlass for us "lazy, middle-aged man like me"! I press this button, he
goes up. I press this button he comes down.

I suppose I could mark one "Ascender" and the other "Decender", saving
several thousand dollars on custom mountain climbing equipment in the
process....(c;

It can even lift my heavy ass, right to the top, without a sweat!

Larry
--
Why is it, in any city, all traffic lights act as if they have rotary
timers in them, like they did in 1955, and are all set to create
maximum inconvenience and block traffic movement, entirely?

Prusiks do not "follow" you as you go up, they must be "broken" and
then pushed up. Likewise on the way back down. This does require some
thought but you should be thinking hard when on rope. If you aint
scared you are foolish.