purple_stars wrote:
[snip]

followup to my own post ... all that said, i'd be more likely to buy
the luggable version, sort of like a diesel version of the little honda
generator, because i wouldn't want to try to install it with all the
exhaust and fuel lines and things in a boat, just too much trouble for
what it is. that's more something you'd fit in when you were building
the boat in the first place, or re-fitting it. installing a diesel
generator below deck i think is just too much trouble for me
personally.

I agree 100%. Auto start might be a nice *additional* option to have
but probably not for the increase in cost. Boaters who are serious
enough about their batteries and electrical system to buy something
like this will probably want the control and be careful not to draw
their batteries down so low that the automatic option would kick in.

Besides, think of the liability if someone was checking something like
belt tension, fueling, or working on the electrical system when it
kicked in.

For an engine of this size, I would favor a pull rope and the lowest
possible cost unless you go the permanently installed route and it's
in a place you can't got to pull on it. If air-cooled, that isn't
very likely.

I would mount the fuel tank on it in such a way that it can easily be
removed and an extension fuel line attached. You might hook it up to
the boat's main fuel supply and have the option for taking it ashore
to use for other purposes. Or, you could put the generator where it
is most convenient and the fuel tank in the best place.

I wish the fuel tank on my home emergency generator was removable this
way. Then I could leave the gas out in the shed and keep the
generator in the basement so the block and cylinders wouldn't be cold
soaked if I needed to get it running.

Most boater who would buy something like this will also have a very
good 120 V driven battery charger. It very possibly will have
temperature probes to the batteries. Being able to supply just enough
AC to run this unit would be my goal. If it could also run small
power tools, it would have additional uses if portable.

Many battery chargers are hooked up with a standard three prong plug
and an AC outlet. Boat with this set up could simply run a standard
cord to the charger when they wanted to use the generator. It the AC
charger is hard wired, they could use an adapter to the shore power
inlet and turn off everything else in the boat. This would also let
the generator power the boat's AC outlets for running tools.

Think simple. Think flexible. Keep the cost and weight low enough
that I will buy one.

--

Roger Long



"purple_stars" wrote in message
ups.com...
Chuck Cox wrote:
purple_stars wrote:
[snip]
and also remote start so you can mount the starter switch where
ever
you want it.

There really won't be a "Start" button. There will only be
"On/Off" and
the charger will decide when to start and stop. When you suggest
this
feature, are you thinking of a built-in or stand-alone
configuation? I
think this would be required in a built-in configuration, but for a
stand-alone configuration, I'm inclined to forgoe the additional
expense
unless it provides a significant benefit.

Thanks for your feedback.

for the built in configuration is what i meant.

unless it's just going to be a self contained generator with it's
own
fuel tank and everything like you were considering then i think the
run
switch is less than desirable, and let me tell you why. anyone who
is
going to be using this generator in our (rec.boats.cruising) mindset
is
going to have certain things going through their head, and here's
the
basic thought process ... (please feel free to say this isn't your
thought process rec.boats.cruisers! lol) ... maybe i should say,
it's
my thought process!

--

** oh no! it's been rainy & gloomy and calm for days, thick stratus
clouds as far as the eye can see, and they're just sitting there not
moving a bit. my solar panels haven't been producing enough power
to
keep the house battery bank charged up and the wind generator hasn't
been producing any power either because of the lack of wind. what
to
do!!! oh, i know, we can TURN THE SWITCH ON FOR THE DIESEL BATTERY
CHARGER and spend some fuel charging up the house bank so we don't
lose
power to the radio, cooler, and all the other junk we have on board.

and later ...

** oh goodie!!! we're out of the doldrums, the wind is picking up,
the
sun is coming back out, and we're getting power from the solar
panels
and wind generator again! yay! NOW WE CAN TURN THE DIESEL
GENERATOR
OFF AND LEAVE IT OFF UNTIL WE NEED IT TO CHARGE UP THE BATTERIES
AGAIN.
meanwhile, we'll just go back to using this free energy that doesn't
cost us any precious fuel and save the fuel for a rainy day.

--

that's basically the thought process going on. your generator, in
my
thinking, is there to make it so that the cruiser doesn't have to
use
the big marine engine and it's alternator just to charge batteries,
instead, yours is like a mini version, to efficiently turn fuel into
battery bank storage. but it's NOT THE PRIMARY means of charging
batteries, it's the backup to use when the free stuff stops working.
which it does sometimes, due to lack of wind, days of rain, or maybe
you are missing a fuse you need, or your wind generator got lost in
a
storm or something. most battery bank systems are going to be
sophisticated enough (as will their users) to put your generator to
the
proper use on their own. there are already plenty of solar/wind
battery chargers out there that have a built in automatic control
for
turning on/off a generator and managing it without your generator
trying to do that on it's own (and in my opinion getting in the
way).

that said, that's all assuming it's all installed, like you said.
if
it's just one piece and you take it out on deck to recharge the
batteries for a few hours then yeah a run button is the best thing.
you didn't sound so sure about that though since you were asking if
it
should have it's own fuel tank, it sounded like you were going more
for
an installed widget vs. a luggable gadget. but if you are going
luggable then you're in competition with the little honda generator
and
a more general market. and a diesel luggable is going to be really
heavy.

personally i don't want a generator doing what it wants to do, i
want
it doing what i want it to do, i want control over it. there is
enough
stuff going on inside of a boat without having a generator starting
up
at awkward times, at night when you're sleeping, when there's water
in
the bilge or what have you ... it's just not a good idea to have it
starting and running without some kind of basic control over it, in
my
opinion. of course maybe opinions vary, i don't know. i think it's
nice having all the switches right there in one place near the
fuses,
and it gives you more options for where to put the generator and
it's
associated pipes. and with a remote switch you can hook it up to a
relay and have all kinds of flexibility, or let the solar/wind
charger
turn it on and off with a manual override (remote run switch).

Makes it sound like a good low battery alarm option if it'll start up
automatically on bilge watch. Add a cellphone auto dialler interface,
and your boat anchored a hundred miles away in a cell phone area can
look after herself during the week, calling home even on a battery too
low to start the genny. With a propane safe style locker and an air
inlet tube for the engine, it might even be convenient to move it from
the mother ship to the gig.

If it's portable, it might go in the dinghy to backup long trolling
motor trips, say for groceries from the mouth of the Jemseg to
Gagetown, a comfortable hour by dinghy with a gas outboard, or a nail
biter with only one battery. You could use a real small battery to
buffer the genny for the Min Kota or for short trips, and you could
control the cg better than with a larger outboard, let alone lugging
one.

It sounds like a winner to me.

If it was silent, and if synergy works in an insulated boat with
seawater cooled intake ventilation and exhaust air heat exchanger fan,
adding a little air conditioner, say 200 watts or so, carved out of a
solid state cooler box, might just make sweltering nights on a tiny
boat bearable, so long as the exhaust is always downwind from the
intakes, or exits high up, away from cooler intakes, say up the mast...

You might even be able to collect some condensed water vapor from the
cold plate, to mix with water purification fluid, ie Crown Royal..

A small enough ship, like a CL16 could also depend on a Minn Kota for
weekend excursions into airless hinterland fishing areas, where the
prime mover could make a mosquito proof insulated tent liveable and
pilotable.

Now, if everything needed only one fuel, like camp stove fuel, or LPG,
or if you had a diesel camp stove. Did you suggest it could be made to
run on canola oil or ethanol?

They camp out in Volkswagens, don't they?

How about a pto shaft for a rooster tail prop shaft, pump or power saw
/ drill?

Price? Oh, make the auto self start an option.

Terry K

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:06:11 -0500,
Chuck Cox wrote:
Yes, this is an old thread coming back to life...

Back in December I wrote:
As part of a non-boating-related product, my company is designing what
amounts to an automatic 500w DC self-starting gasoline battery charger.
The charger is designed to be portable, unobtrusive and easy to
maintain. If the battery has sufficient charge, it can self-start, but
it can also be hand-started easily when necessary. It is designed to
automatically start and stop as necessary to keep a battery charged.

Having read postings here about cruisers running with reduced radar and
lighting at night in order to conserve battery power, it occured to me
that we could repackage the charger for marine use. It would be roughly
shoe-box sized and effectively silent unless you were sitting next to it
on a calm day. It seems like this would be useful for boats with no
genset and modest electrical loads (i.e. lights & electronics). When
connected to the battery it would automatically start up and and shut
down as necessary to maintain the charge. It could also be designed to
cooperate with external charge controllers.

It seems like it would be a useful product, but I found nothing like it
when I googled for obvious keywords. Does such a product already exist?
Would there be any interest in such a charger? I know I have been in
situations where it would have been useful.

Roger Long and several others then made very convincing arguments that
diesel would be the best fuel for this product. Well, my partner has
found an appropriate diesel motor and electric motor/generator. We are
putting together a test stand now and should get some real-world data
soon. My partner insists that lubrication is not a problem at any angle
of heel, but that is one thing we'll be taking a hard look at.

There are a couple of major variables that I'm still unclear on: how it
will get fuel and where it will be located. For fuel, I'm wondering if
it would be preferable to have its own fuel tank or to connect to the
main fuel system. For location, it could be a stand-alone unit that you
put on deck to operate, or a built-in unit that could operate without
getting in the way. Clearly these two issues are inter-related.

My original idea was to make it stand-alone with its own fuel tank. By
using a small fuel pump, we can locate the fuel tank beside the motor
instead of on top like most generators. This would make for a
low-profile package that would be less intrusive than a typical
generator, but you'd still have one more thing on deck to trip over.

So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?



Diesel definately. I'd rather not deal with gasoline at all, since I
don't have a gasoline aux or main, I don't want to haul it for a genset.

Standalone would be preferable for me, but either way would work. What
price point are you looking at? Competing with the little and quiet
(although gas) honda's is gong to be tough. But good luck, and please
keep us posted, I for one would be interested.



--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
"Human beings can always be counted on to assert with vigor
their God-given right to be stupid."
-- Dean Koontz

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
Depends. Is this going to be water cooled or air cooled? If water
cooled, sea water or fresh water with radiator or via heat exchanger?

Air cooled.

I'm assuming air cooled as this is simplest for an engine. However, it
may be noisy and need access to ventilation so belowdecks may not be
ideal.

The noise will be minimized since we can optimize the induction/exhaust
system for one fundamental frequency and amplitude. However, you are
right that it will make noise and require ventilation. I am
particularly concerned about exhaust gases.

If it operates belowdecks, it *has* to have some form of idiot-proof
exhaust to a weather deck.

A built-in system would
almost certainly be more expensive to design and support, so we'd need
to see sufficient demand to justify it.

My preference would be for an integral tank that gravity-feeds the
engine. This is simplest and therefore cheapest. You can always use it
as a day tank and fill via dedicated line from the main tank, or rig up
a float switch to kick in a pump.

Does the higher profile of a gravity-fed system matter to you?

No.

Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Probably, depending on size, in a dedicated locker aft, sealed from the
interior spaces similar to a locker for gas bottles. Tell me how big
it's likely to be, how much ventilation it needs and I may have other
ideas.

PDW

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

purple_stars wrote:

if you want to use a fuel based system you've always had to step up
to suddenly wasting incredible amounts of fuel to run an alternator
that is very inefficient at charging batteries for the amount of fuel
wasted doing it, and there's not been a generator that is down in the
"few hundred watt" range that would make better use of fuel. battery
banks can only accept a certain amount of power, and a 5000 watt
generator might as well be a 500 watt generator because you can't
charge the batteries any faster than using a few hundred watts anyway,
so you're just wasting energy for nothing. nobody has ever bothered to
make and sell an inexpensive small diesel generator designed to charge
a battery bank, at least not that i've ever seen. cruisers are
interested in the measurement "battery bank watt hours created per
liter of fuel", and i'm not aware of any manufacturer that has ever
thought about it that way. most generator makers just think of "watts
generated per liter", which isn't the same thing at all.

That is exactly our thinking too. By optimizing the system for charging
only, we can maximize efficiency. Our biggest advantage is that we have
a fixed load and can optimize the system for a very narrow operating
range in terms of speed and power. Although we are using an
off-the-shelf motor, we expect to use custom induction & exhaust systems
in order to maximize efficiency and minimize noise and size.

i would think that hooking it into the fuel line for the engine's fuel
tank would be the preferred way, but why not make the external tank an
option ? that way you can decide for yourself when you buy one if you
want the tank or if you want a piece of fuel line and a T adapter.

As a small business, we can only afford to design, manufacture and
support one configuration initially. I'm trying to figure out which
configuration would be our best first shot.

diesel is definitely the way to go, storage of gasoline is a problem.
it would be nice if it used fuel filters that you can get at the same
time as the ones for your marine engine without special ordering.

Our intention is to use as many off-the-shelf components as possible.
However, most of the parts probably won't be found in a typical marine
catalog because I don't think there are too many 1 hp marine
diesel-electric applications.

I have a 3 HP manual/electric start air cooled Yanmar marine diesel
with integral tank & 2:1 F-N-R box I picked up som years ago waiting
for the right project. I actually had something like this, or using it
to drive a hydraulic pump, or both, in mind.

PDW

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:51:30 -0500, Chuck Cox
wrote:


This brings up another question; should we incorporate an intelligent
charger or should we interface with an existing external charger? If
your batteries are already connected to a charging system, it will only
confuse things if we try to operate two independent changing systems
simultaneously. My assumption is that most potential users of this
charger already have a charging system onboard. Is this a valid
assumption? I have no experience with off-the-shelf marine chargers,
can they even be interfaced with an external power source?

I think you may find that if you design a basic "core" model, you can
successfully market add-ons geared to end-user needs. I would
personally favour smart-charging because it "covers my bets" for a
multitude of scenarios: the failure of a smart/regulated alternator on
the main diesel, the failure of a charger, and the failure of the wind
to blow and the sun to shine, which would be my primary methods of
charging in order to avoid the wasteful and noisy running of the main
engine for 2 hrs/day to provide a charge.

So if you can make this design "modular", you have the options that
people want: a luggable power supply, a miniature diesel "day charger"
for battery banks, keeping one less fuel type on board, and the
options to tap into tank fuel or to use integral fuel.

It's a great option for small-boat owners, too, who frequently stay on
the hook longer, anyway, and who tend to do more yard work at a
distance from "municipal power".

I am currently on a dock, but would be happier on a mooring (and would
save $1,500/year) if I could have this sort of thing to charge me up.

R.

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:
Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Probably, depending on size, in a dedicated locker aft, sealed from the
interior spaces similar to a locker for gas bottles. Tell me how big
it's likely to be, how much ventilation it needs and I may have other
ideas.

If we use a fuel pump, it'll probably be about the size of a shoebox.
If we use gravity, it'll be maybe 50% taller. If there is no integral
tank, maybe 1/2 a shoebox. The intake and exhaust will probably be
under 1" in diameter. For short runs, appropriate tubing of that
diameter would suffice.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

Jim Richardson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:06:11 -0500,
Chuck Cox wrote:
So, if you were to put such a system on your boat, what would you prefer?

Diesel definately. I'd rather not deal with gasoline at all, since I
don't have a gasoline aux or main, I don't want to haul it for a genset.

Standalone would be preferable for me, but either way would work. What
price point are you looking at?

It'll probably cost about as much as a typical 1 kW genset. If we can't
sell it for under $1k retail, we probably won't bother. Right now our
engineering estimates have the MSRP below that.

Competing with the little and quiet
(although gas) honda's is gong to be tough. But good luck, and please
keep us posted, I for one would be interested.

We have no intention of competing with Honda, we will only proceed with
this project if our market research indicates we have found a true
niche. I see no reason why someone might not have both products for
different purposes.

--
Chuck Cox - SynchroSystems - Synchro.com
,
my email is politician-proof, just remove the PORK

In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , Chuck Cox
wrote:
Where
would you envision operating such a system on your boat?

Probably, depending on size, in a dedicated locker aft, sealed from the
interior spaces similar to a locker for gas bottles. Tell me how big
it's likely to be, how much ventilation it needs and I may have other
ideas.

If we use a fuel pump, it'll probably be about the size of a shoebox.
If we use gravity, it'll be maybe 50% taller. If there is no integral
tank, maybe 1/2 a shoebox. The intake and exhaust will probably be
under 1" in diameter. For short runs, appropriate tubing of that
diameter would suffice.

OK, a deck locker would work nicely. The other place I'd look at
putting it was belowdecks and use a coupling to external exhaust. That
size, it's not going to use sufficient air from belowdecks to be a
problem.

There may be other applications for something like this. I can think of
one or 2 supplying power to remote field parties where solar either
doesn't provide sufficient current or isn't reliable due to cloud. I'm
in the marine science research business. If you can produce one of
these things for less than $1K I'd buy one straight off for work, just
to play with. I already have 12 Honda gensets....

PDW