Ok..

In article .com,
wrote:
You're really a pill. I tried to give you a compliment and as typical
for an idiot, you took it for an insult. You said "we non-stupid ones
have campaigned...." I suppose you aren't included in that
group. Silly me.

I have to admit you lost me there. I re-read your previous post and
mine, and can't find where you
tried to give me a compliment ("that's really nice to know"?), OR why

Ok... well, I was *trying*, but not hard enough. See my post to
Scotty.

(I dunno, if you want to talk about my IQ, SAT"s, Mensa membership, my
twenty-year career as a software developer/architect
or anything else to back up my being non-stupid, that's a separate
discussion, hopefully
you'll just take my word for it and we can keep talking about boating
issues.)

I will as long as you don't tell me your a member of Mensa. :-)

I don't think it's necessarily the best
place to start. All boaters should have to take some sort of safety
class, but the licensing part of it I'm not sure adds that much to it.

Here's where I can help you, or clarify what I was talking about
before. The heart of NY state's pwc "licensing" requirement is that
you have to take an eight-hour basic boating safety course (it's
not a license per se that you get, but a boating safety certificate
that shows you passed the test at the end of the course -
demonstrating that you have been exposed to, and demonstrated at
least a minimal retention and understanding of,
the basics of boating safety). So I think we're actually in agreement
here, right? You agree

I agree with the boating safety part. So, I guess, yes.

with me (and the pwc industry and community at large, for what it's
worth), precisely that,
as you say, "All boaters should have to take some safety class," that
is exactly my position.

Kewl.

As far as the "licensing part" and what it "adds to it," I think I'm
just looking to make someone
take a test to demonstrate that they actually did take the class, and
absorb the material satisfactorily.
If we're going to mandate that all boaters take a safety class (and I"m
really pleased to hear that you agree with
me that we should), I think you'd agree that we need some way of
verifying that they have, and paid some
attention to the information.

I think the latter part is a tough road to travel. People take driving
tests and pass, but they're still terrible drivers and don't
necessarily remember the rules for longer than it takes to get from
the exam to their car. I think that the best one can do is to have
people take the class. After they take and pass the class (which would
be a pretty low standard, unfortunately), that's probably all you can
do.

I'd be happy to hear a suggestion about how to actually confirm that
they got it or that they continue to get it. Are you suggesting that
they have to do this on some regular basis? Not being too serious, I'd
like to see a driving test before you can operate a boat.

I'm glad we've slogged through the rougher parts of this chat, I think
we've found a lot of common ground
and I appreciate your softened, eminently reasonable and flameless tone
in the post below as well.

Well, I screwed up. Don't hold it against me.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I think the latter part is a tough road to travel. People take driving
tests and pass, but they're still terrible drivers and don't
necessarily remember the rules for longer than it takes to get from
the exam to their car. I think that the best one can do is to have
people take the class. After they take and pass the class (which would
be a pretty low standard, unfortunately), that's probably all you can
do.

I'd be happy to hear a suggestion about how to actually confirm that
they got it or that they continue to get it.

Well, like I said, in NY you take the eight-hour course from Power
Squadron
or Coast Guard Auxiliary, then take a test and, if you score high
enough, get
a certificate from the organization. In addition, you have to take an
extra pwc-specific
written safety test and get a certain percentage of the questions
right, to get an additional
certification, which then lets you legally operate a pwc (you then sort
of convert it into
a more formal "license" from NYS, which is mutually accepted to also
let you operate in NJ
or Ct.)

Are you suggesting that
they have to do this on some regular basis? Not being too serious, I'd
like to see a driving test before you can operate a boat.

Now, that'd be really worth something, but I don't think we'd ever see
that. Too expensive, prohibitvely complicated
to administer (would people have to report to the docks on Saturday
mornings and wait in line for boat-driving tests with
the coast guard or something?), and politically people would probably
just never go for it.

For now I'd be delighted if all boaters just had the same requirement
that we pwc'ers have now. Just to demonstrate,
by taking and passing a written test, that they have had some exposure
to the basics of boating safety, and retained
the information at least long enough to pass the test! Now that
actually tells us a little more if you think about that. If somebody
goes to the
trouble to take the class and prepare for and pass the test, that puts
them a notch up in responsibility and seriousness,
than somebody who didn't, in my eyes. Hopefully it tells us that
they're serious enough about it to actually WANT to learn
the basics and acknowledge the importance of being safe.....and from
there I'll be happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume
that from there they are actually going to start boating and learning
more, getting better, learning from mistakes, all the time, as we all
have.
If they pay any attention at all to the course, they will at least come
away with a sense of how much there is to be aware
of and to learn, that goes along with operating a boat, that they might
not have realized before if they are new to it.
If they didn't know this and didn't pay enough attention or at least
realize this, then they probably won't be able to pass
the test and that would keep the worst of the idiots and jerks off the
water until they can at least show that they have
started to get a clue.

Right now, in New York State, unless I'm incorrect, it is ONLY people
operating pwc's that, when I see them on the water,
I know they have either had a boating safety course, or if not they
will be eventually caught and ticketed.

richforman

In article .com,
wrote:
Are you suggesting that
they have to do this on some regular basis? Not being too serious, I'd
like to see a driving test before you can operate a boat.

Now, that'd be really worth something, but I don't think we'd ever see
that. Too expensive, prohibitvely complicated
to administer (would people have to report to the docks on Saturday
mornings and wait in line for boat-driving tests with
the coast guard or something?), and politically people would probably
just never go for it.

I'm pretty politically correct, and I'd love to see it... probably
right though... not going to happen. It could be done through local
sailing schools for a state-mandated fee, but no matter how you cut
it, it would be expensive and unwieldy. I could even see something as
minimal as just taking the boat out of the slip and returning safely
to Earth. It wouldn't take more than 10 minutes.

At one point, I used my reciprocal priviledges with another
organization to rent a boat in So. Cal. That's what they had me
do... kind of a joke, but I could see their point I guess. One of
their instructors backed the boat out of the slip and handed me the
wheel. All he wanted me to do was make a big turn and dock the boat. I
said, "backward"? But, no just drive it straight in. No current, no
wind... odd for letting someone they don't know charter a $1/4 mil
boat.

If they pay any attention at all to the course, they will at least come
away with a sense of how much there is to be aware
of and to learn, that goes along with operating a boat, that they might
not have realized before if they are new to it.

One hopes...

Right now, in New York State, unless I'm incorrect, it is ONLY people
operating pwc's that, when I see them on the water,
I know they have either had a boating safety course, or if not they
will be eventually caught and ticketed.

Out here, anything goes. However, the CG and local law enforcement are
pretty visible. If you look like you know what you're doing, then they
typically don't board you. If you don't, then you're likely to have
that happen. A week or so ago, there was some guy doing a bit less
than 10 kts. near the harbor entrance... clearly marked 5 mph speed
limit. The Sheriff told him to slow down, then he was boarded by the
CG when he exited the channel. Amazing coincidence.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote
(I dunno, if you want to talk about my IQ, SAT"s, Mensa
membership, my
twenty-year career as a software developer/architect
or anything else to back up my being non-stupid, that's a
separate
discussion, hopefully
you'll just take my word for it and we can keep talking about
boating
issues.)

I will as long as you don't tell me your a member of Mensa. :-)


Everybody on the Internet is a member of Mensa.

SBV

Everybody on the Internet is a member of Mensa.

I don't know about that - I'm not, didn't keep up the dues because I
wasn't really getting
much out of it - didn't need to join another club and go to meetings
and events because
my life is already pretty full with the day job, wife, kids, working
weekends as a musician,
and boating. But I was a member for a year or two, just a few years
back; I just took the entrance test
out of curiosity and pride (egotism I guess), was pretty sure I'd get
in and I did. Then I found
out that I didn't even need to take the test, could have gotten in just
by showing my SAT results,
also in the top 2% percentile of the population....not to brag or
anything, but someone in the
post earlier questioned my intelligence, and believe me, it's not in
question.

richforman

wrote ...
Everybody on the Internet is a member of Mensa.

I don't know about that - I'm not, didn't keep up the dues
because I
wasn't really getting
much out of it - didn't need to join another club and go to
meetings
and events because
my life is already pretty full with the day job, wife, kids,
working
weekends as a musician,
and boating. But I was a member for a year or two, just a few
years
back; I just took the entrance test
out of curiosity and pride (egotism I guess), was pretty sure
I'd get
in and I did. Then I found
out that I didn't even need to take the test, could have gotten
in just
by showing my SAT results,
also in the top 2% percentile of the population....not to brag
or
anything, but someone in the
post earlier questioned my intelligence, and believe me, it's
not in
question.


Dare I ask, then why do you own a PWC?



SBV

also in the top 2% percentile of the population....not to brag
or
anything, but someone in the
post earlier questioned my intelligence, and believe me, it's
not in
question.


Dare I ask, then why do you own a PWC?



SBV


Many of the wealthiest and most intelligent people in the world own PWC's.
Agreed... they keep them on their yacht (s).

I especially like the shot of the two Yami's sitting alongside Paul Allen's
Octopus.

"The_Giz" wrote in message
...
also in the top 2% percentile of the population....not to brag
or
anything, but someone in the
post earlier questioned my intelligence, and believe me, it's
not in
question.


Dare I ask, then why do you own a PWC?



SBV


Many of the wealthiest and most intelligent people in the world own PWC's.
Agreed... they keep them on their yacht (s).

I especially like the shot of the two Yami's sitting alongside Paul
Allen's Octopus.

If they were the only people who owned them, I would be quite happy.
Clearly, you're not one of them.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"The_Giz" wrote in message
...
also in the top 2% percentile of the population....not to brag
or
anything, but someone in the
post earlier questioned my intelligence, and believe me, it's
not in
question.


Dare I ask, then why do you own a PWC?



SBV


Many of the wealthiest and most intelligent people in the world own
PWC's. Agreed... they keep them on their yacht (s).

I especially like the shot of the two Yami's sitting alongside Paul
Allen's Octopus.

If they were the only people who owned them, I would be quite happy.
Clearly, you're not one of them.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




Which point would you like to wager on... wealth or intelligence? Perhaps
both?

CLEARLY you attempt to state facts when you don't even have the first clue.
Or as they say, you know not of what you speak.

Tis a shame.

Giz

"The_Giz" wrote in message
...
also in the top 2% percentile of the population....not to
brag
or
anything, but someone in the
post earlier questioned my intelligence, and believe me,
it's
not in
question.


Dare I ask, then why do you own a PWC?



SBV


Many of the wealthiest and most intelligent people in the world
own PWC's.
Agreed... they keep them on their yacht (s).

I especially like the shot of the two Yami's sitting alongside
Paul Allen's
Octopus.


you didn't answer my question.

SBV