"Roger Long" wrote:

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine
to move it while firmly attached.

Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to
accellerate it.

Also I seem to remember that in reverse the rudder has less ability to
turn the boat, and that I must not turn the wheel hard over in reverse
because if I do, the rudder is less effective.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.

We too use a spring line on the dock to anchor the bow usually while
we drive into it to get the stern in to a face dock. But sometimes we
will use one to pivot the boat while coming out of the slip.

In our home slip of course, we don't cast the lines off and bring them
aboard, we hang them up on the pilings or leave them on the dock.

grandma Rosalie

Great thread. Some of I summarized a long time ago, and it is
semi-permanently posted he

www.boatdocking.com/other/Sternway.html

====

Charles T. Low
www.boatdocking.com

====

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
...
We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than the
temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without the stern
walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side of the slip
(mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep the space
inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature that our 32
footer might as well be one of the big sail training vessels I'm familiar
with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or stern in with a dock line
is concerned....

Another thought.
You say a long dock, does it or a piling extend beyond the stern cleat? If
it does far enough, tie a line to it and the stern cleat with enough slack
when its perpendicular to the boat centerline to just keep you out of the
neighbors yard.
Back out and let the stern swing, when you get passed the piling or dock
cleat the line will start swinging the stern back toward the dock. Cast off
as appropriate and watch to be sure you don't swing the bow into your
neighbor. The stern will come back much faster than it swung out.
BF


"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it
until today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the
middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light
enough to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up
to the dock, jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in
larger boats has all been as crew and most of those boats have been 60
feet and over so everything was done with well orchestrated line
handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than
the temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without
the stern walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side
of the slip (mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep
the space inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature
that our 32 footer might as well be one of the big sail training
vessels I'm familiar with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or
stern in with a dock line is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get
out of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on
the schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then
set a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in
and the bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the
boat enough in the slip that she would have to straighten out in
backing and about double the distance I could back before the stern
swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under
the counter but the boat didn't move. More power, nothing. It was dead
calm but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as
the prop will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still
didn't turn. I finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and
we backed out taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our
mythical slip mate as we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn't going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I'm going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

--

Roger Long

Sounds like your prop is way aft and the torque has a strong affect on
the boat.
If so, I call it popping reverse, put it in reverse add throttle and
then quickly reduce throtle, and take out of gear. Repeat as required.
Just do leave it in gear very long. Have the rudder turned the way you
want to go. I learned this on my first single screw cruiser, and it
worked fine on my 30 ft. Hunter.

Coupla points:
1. Some have a tendency to leave an engine in gear through an entire
portion of a maneuver .... or, in short, too long.
Just go astern long enough to get the boat moving in the basic direction
you want. Since you know you will get an immediate propwalk to port,
have your rudder hard right, so that as soon as you take it out of gear,
what little effect the rudder might have at this speed and direction,
can be used and not overcome by the propwalk.

2. Be careful of leaving slack in a line and then getting sternway and
coming up tight on the line to get a particular maneuver .... you are
putting some potentially dangerous shock loads on the line and cleats.
Instead, maybe try different leads on the line you will use. In the case
of the spring, try longer and shorter leads and different locations on
the boat and/or dock, if possible.
Also, if you have help, have your line handler work the line .... you
can get sternway and still maintain a slight strain on the line, then
snub it ( I know, it's a shock load, but done correctly it can greatly
reduce that load) when you want to get a reaction (a good line handler
can make a bad docking look great and a great docking look bad).

otn

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote:

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine
to move it while firmly attached.

Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to
accellerate it.

Also I seem to remember that in reverse the rudder has less ability to
turn the boat, and that I must not turn the wheel hard over in reverse
because if I do, the rudder is less effective.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.

We too use a spring line on the dock to anchor the bow usually while
we drive into it to get the stern in to a face dock. But sometimes we
will use one to pivot the boat while coming out of the slip.

In our home slip of course, we don't cast the lines off and bring them
aboard, we hang them up on the pilings or leave them on the dock.

grandma Rosalie

I find that you have to be really careful to keep the rudder amidships when
in reverse, because the action on the rudder will cause the wheel or tiller
to slam violently to one side if it gets much passed centerline. You can use
this if you're prepared for it. If you're not prepared for it, fingers or
wrists broken may be the result.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Nigel" wrote in message
...

I have a Bruce Roberts 53ft with a long fin keel, 25 ton displacement, 3
blade fixed prop and an 80hp engine. I find that if I use short bursts of
astern (rather than continuous) The rudder has a bigger say in the
proceedings and I suffer much less prop walk. Once she is moving astern,
the prop is maintaining boat speed and no longer trying to accelerate, it
almost feel like I have control


Yes, I've seen this in all the boats I've sailed. I saw a guy use this
technique on a 61ft steel sloop to basically park between two other larger
boats with inches to spare. It was quite impressive.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Charles T. Low" [withoutUN] wrote in message
wsgroups.com...
Great thread. Some of I summarized a long time ago, and it is
semi-permanently posted he

www.boatdocking.com/other/Sternway.html

====

Charles T. Low
www.boatdocking.com

====

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
...
We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than the
temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without the
stern walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side of the
slip (mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep the space
inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature that our 32
footer might as well be one of the big sail training vessels I'm familiar
with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or stern in with a dock
line is concerned....


Thanks for the link.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine to
move it while firmly attached.

Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to accellerate
it.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.


I've been accused of giving people worse things.. :-)

Would have worked great too except that I let the RPM's drop too far
while distracted trying to explain to the bow line handler that you
only have to untie one end of the doubled line to slip it (previously
explained but it didn't stick) and the engine quit. (I'm coming to
hate the shutdown with throttle arrangement. An eighth of an inch of
travel is the difference between idle and quitting. The engine should
remain on line until you explicitly want it to stop.) By the time I
got to the starter button and back to the wheel, the wind had us and
the anchor on the roller had gone through the phantom window of the
imaginary powerboat next door.

It probably would have worked fine if I'd been alone. I'd have cast
off the boat and then given my full attention to the rest. This
business of teaching line handling while learning docking is tough.
Nothing like, "You mean this line?", as the kid puts his hand on the
roller jib sheet, to kind of freeze your mental processes at a
critical moment.

--

Roger Long


Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from
the helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.