Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it
until today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the
middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light
enough to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up
to the dock, jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in
larger boats has all been as crew and most of those boats have been 60
feet and over so everything was done with well orchestrated line
handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than
the temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without
the stern walking far enough that we’ll hit the boat on the other side
of the slip (mercifully, it hasn’t shown up yet but I’m trying to keep
the space inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature
that our 32 footer might as well be one of the big sail training
vessels I’m familiar with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or
stern in with a dock line is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get
out of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on
the schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then
set a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in
and the bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the
boat enough in the slip that she would have to straighten out in
backing and about double the distance I could back before the stern
swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under
the counter but the boat didn’t move. More power, nothing. It was dead
calm but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as
the prop will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still
didn’t turn. I finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and
we backed out taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our
mythical slip mate as we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn’t going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I’m going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

--

Roger Long

Roger Long wrote:
Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it
until today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the
middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light
enough to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up
to the dock, jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in
larger boats has all been as crew and most of those boats have been 60
feet and over so everything was done with well orchestrated line
handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than
the temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without
the stern walking far enough that we’ll hit the boat on the other side
of the slip (mercifully, it hasn’t shown up yet but I’m trying to keep
the space inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature
that our 32 footer might as well be one of the big sail training
vessels I’m familiar with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or
stern in with a dock line is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get
out of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on
the schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then
set a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in
and the bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the
boat enough in the slip that she would have to straighten out in
backing and about double the distance I could back before the stern
swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under
the counter but the boat didn’t move. More power, nothing. It was dead
calm but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as
the prop will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still
didn’t turn. I finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and
we backed out taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our
mythical slip mate as we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn’t going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I’m going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

To pull out of a slip backwards singlehanded with my 33' Hunter, I lock
the rudder over the way I want to back out, untie, hop out onto the dock
and holding the bow rail, walk the boat out of the slip. It will turn a
little in the correct direction usually but if it's not enough, as I
reach the end of the dock I give the bow a little boost sideways in the
correct direction as I hop on. This always gets me facing the right
direction. I make my way back to the helm, unlock the wheel and
straighten the rudder. Put it in forward and off we go.


--
Stephen

-------

For any proposition there is always some sufficiently narrow
interpretation of its terms, such that it turns out true, and
some sufficiently wide interpretation such that it turns out
false...concept stretching will refute *any* statement, and will
leave no true statement whatsoever.
-- Imre Lakatos

Stephen Trapani wrote:

To pull out of a slip backwards singlehanded with my 33' Hunter, I lock
the rudder over the way I want to back out, untie, hop out onto the dock
and holding the bow rail, walk the boat out of the slip. It will turn a
little in the correct direction usually but if it's not enough, as I
reach the end of the dock I give the bow a little boost sideways in the
correct direction as I hop on. This always gets me facing the right
direction. I make my way back to the helm, unlock the wheel and
straighten the rudder. Put it in forward and off we go.


Erm... Presumably hope like hell that you don't slip and lose grip on
your baby? Or do you take the precaution of having a line connecting
self and boat?

I've got the added problem in Tropic Bird of an offset prop. All astern
is really good for is taking way off, she just goes where she wants to
going astern...
JM

Roger Long wrote:
snip...
The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn’t going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I’m going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?


When I was crewing on a Mirage 33, I would stay on the slip and hold
onto the boat while the skipper backed out. I would time it so that I
could jump back on just before the shrouds were equal to the end of the
slip. On this boat he had a fixed three blade prop so it did back out
better than his previous boat with the two bladed folding prop.

Did you try backing out without lines? If you did, did you leave the
engine in reverse the whole time and did you use any rudder?
How long a lead did you have on your after fwd spring (when you used the
line method)?

otn

"Roger Long" wrote:

Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it
until today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the
middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light
enough to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up
to the dock, jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in
larger boats has all been as crew and most of those boats have been 60
feet and over so everything was done with well orchestrated line
handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than
the temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without
the stern walking far enough that we’ll hit the boat on the other side
of the slip (mercifully, it hasn’t shown up yet but I’m trying to keep
the space inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature
that our 32 footer might as well be one of the big sail training
vessels I’m familiar with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or
stern in with a dock line is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get
out of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on
the schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then
set a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in
and the bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the
boat enough in the slip that she would have to straighten out in
backing and about double the distance I could back before the stern
swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under
the counter but the boat didn’t move. More power, nothing. It was dead
calm but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as
the prop will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still
didn’t turn. I finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and
we backed out taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our
mythical slip mate as we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade
prop on a heavy 32 foot boat isn’t going to do squat in fancy line
maneuvers. I’m going to have to make sure I always invite some big
guests for every sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

Well we have a bigger heavier boat than you do. It's called a 44, but
actually measures about 50 feet and is 37,000 lbs with a 60 hp (at
best) inboard and a modified full keel. We can't turn like a fin keel
boat can, so this may not be applicable to you.

Bob can spin the boat on the mast (at least if there isn't too much
wind or current), by holding wheel over steady in one position and
using the engine alternately in forward and reverse.

We also do a LOT of coming into and going out of slips as when we go
up and down the ICW we mostly spend every night at a dock so we have a
lot of practice at that.. Because we have a dinghy on davits, we
always go into the slip bow first.

When we get ready to leave a place, Bob carefully assesses the wind
and current. Generally, he shortens up the lines and takes off all
the lines except those to the windward. He then starts the engine (or
I do), and turns the wheel in the direction he wants to go initially.
The engine is still in neutral..

All of the lines are led around pilings (or if necessary cleats
although that is harder) and back to the boat. Then he tells me what
he's going to do, and I stand by the last line that we will cast off
with a boat hook. As he starts to back out, I walk the boat out (if
it is a spring line) and/or cast that line off. I sometimes will grab
a pole with the boat hook to pull the bow over to one side or the
other side of the slip especially if she doesn't seem to be backing
the direction that Bob wants.

Sometimes he wants me to back out, but I get easily confused as to
which direction to turn the wheel to go what direction in reverse, so
he doesn't do that unless he can set the wheel so that I don't have to
turn it.

I'd suggest that you practice backing the boat around a 'no wake' buoy
or something similar until you get familiar with the way your boat
backs. Or else, back into the slip.




grandma Rosalie

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Having sailed on boats from 7 to over 300 feet, I tend to think of my
sailing experience as being fairly broad. I never thought about it until
today but, while it may be broad, there is a big hole in the middle.

Most of my command time is in boats under 30 feet, small and light enough
to just manhandle around while docking and undocking. Pull up to the dock,
jump off, grab the rail, boat stops. My experience in larger boats has all
been as crew and most of those boats have been 60 feet and over so
everything was done with well orchestrated line handling and power.

We just moved to our permanent dock which is longer and narrower than the
temporary one we were on. The boat will not back out now without the stern
walking far enough that we'll hit the boat on the other side of the slip
(mercifully, it hasn't shown up yet but I'm trying to keep the space
inviolate for practice). My crew is small enough in stature that our 32
footer might as well be one of the big sail training vessels I'm familiar
with as far as fending off or hauling the bow or stern in with a dock line
is concerned.

I lay awake the other night trying to think how we were going to get out
of the slip the next morning. I asked myself what they would do on the
schooner "Westward". Simple.

The next day, I explained the maneuver to the kids and guests. I then set
a stern spring planning to back against it to pull the stern in and the
bow out before casting off the spring. This would turn the boat enough in
the slip that she would have to straighten out in backing and about double
the distance I could back before the stern swung too far.

I called for the bow line to be let go and put the engine in reverse.
Nothing happened. The engine ran and there was some thrashing under the
counter but the boat didn't move. More power, nothing. It was dead calm
but the boat simply would not turn. I used about as much RPM as the prop
will absorb in bollard pull conditions and the boat still didn't turn. I
finally said the hell with it, cast off the spring, and we backed out
taking a huge imaginary chunk out of the rail of our mythical slip mate as
we went.

The bottom line is that 15 horsepower in reverse through a two blade prop
on a heavy 32 foot boat isn't going to do squat in fancy line maneuvers.
I'm going to have to make sure I always invite some big guests for every
sail or think of something else.

How do you do it?

--

Roger Long

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the spring.
If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine to move it while
firmly attached. Someone else suggested practicing in a non-threatening
spot... good suggestion.

We typically back into the wind to get off a side tie with not much room on
the other side. We're parallel parked between two other boats with maybe
2-foot clearance fore and aft. Fortunately, the propwalk to port is away
from the dock, but the boat will turn in either direction if it's moving a
bit first. We've got a fairly heavy 30 footer with a single cylindar Yan.
There's not enough room to do a U turn coming back in even at high tide, so
we either have to back upwind down a narrow road or spin the boat manually
after a straight in drive.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I have a Bruce Roberts 53ft with a long fin keel, 25 ton displacement, 3
blade fixed prop and an 80hp engine. I find that if I use short bursts of
astern (rather than continuous) The rudder has a bigger say in the
proceedings and I suffer much less prop walk. Once she is moving astern, the
prop is maintaining boat speed and no longer trying to accelerate, it almost
feel like I have control

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine
to move it while firmly attached.

Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to
accellerate it.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.

Roger Long wrote:
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

I think the key is to have the boat moving slightly before using the
spring. If you don't have it moving, you may not have enough engine
to move it while firmly attached.


Ah ha! There is the nugget of wisdom I was hoping to get out of this
post. She certainly would have turned if I had used the considerable
inertia of a boat with a 3/4" glass hull instead of trying to
accellerate it.

Here's what I'll try:

2 -3 feet of slack in the spring to the aft cleat I can reach from the
helm. Rudder full over.
Back until spring is tight and cut power.
Let the boat swing. Add power if necessary.
Cast off spring at the right angle and start backing.
Cut power as boat comes straight in slip.
Use short reverse applications just sufficient to keep sternway on.


In the same vein - a boat that stayed next to ours needed to spin 180
to get out. They kept a line tied to the end of the dock and cleated
to a stern cleat. There was enough slack so that when backed out of
its slip it would snub the stern and pull it to that side. It would
then do a sharp 90 turn in reverse. At that point they would drop the
line and continue in forward. The line would sink, unless some nice
bystander (like me) would haul it up. It was a very elegant maneuver,
especially if you didn't notice the line.