(initiator of thread) Thanks for the suggestions and comments. One of
the problems that I am having in narrowing my selection is due to the
fact that my principle harbor, Havre de Grace, MD, has one marina of
significant size and, I swear, 90% of the boats are either Hunters or
Catalinas (the marina is also a dealership for these boats - there is
kind of a 'monopoly' feel about the place, though everybody is nice and
it does not have that 'uppity' feel that Annapolis has. That most buy
from product from the 'oligopoly' is not a bad thing, but when I walk
around I do not run into owners of Freedoms, Bristols, or even Sabres
and Tartans, etc. So, like others here, I have to rely on forums like
these to narrow my search. I plan to buy in the Fall before the boats
are out of the water. I need time to raise cash, but I also suspect
that it is a decent time to buy, much like waiting for October to
purchase a motorcycle. This weekend I may again drive down to
Annapolis, this time to see a Bristol 27.7 and 29.9. There is also a
nice looking Freedom 32 listed with Rouguewaves, and a 30' Sabre with a
smaller broker. I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling
wealthier). The Tartan 37, Ericson 38, etc. are now off of my short
list.

wrote:

... One of the problems that I am having in narrowing my selection is due
to the fact that my principle harbor, Havre de Grace, MD, has one
marina of significant size and, I swear, 90% of the boats are
either Hunters or Catalinas ... [and] ... when I walk around I do not run
into owners of Freedoms, Bristols, or even Sabres and Tartans, etc...

I suspect you will almost always find that owners of particular boats are
inclined to "shill" (as another writer put it) for their own boats for a
number of reasons. Makes sense. But a more detached approach admits that
any design is a compromise. I don't know how many times I've decided that a
Corsair 31 was the perfect boat, or a Morris 42, or a Bristol Channel
Cutter, or a Gemini 31, or a Newick Native, etc., etc. All different, and
all very good for certain purposes and pocketbooks. Yet most of us end up
with one boat, and hold onto it for a while.

You must (well, not really "must," I guess) decide what you want to do and
where to do it, then work backwards. If you intend to sail short handed out
of Havre de Grace, you need a reliable engine (long entrance channel), not
too much draft, a boat that won't cost an arm and a leg to pay for a slip (I
cannot recall if there are moorings there, since I have anchored out on my
visits). This results in a long list. What you want to do is buy "smart"
with a good survey and at a fair price, then stick with that boat until you
are absolutely certain that it's time for a change.

And that day may never come.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

very true. I look at the Bristol Channel Cutter (my favorate,
aesthetically) and the Nor'Sea and the old Allieds and the non-decimal
Bristols the way I look at Meg Ryan (to a 50-something she looks good).
Many of the boats that I am attracted to are full keel (or 3/4). I came
close last month to buying a beautifully restored Allied 35' and I am
very attracted to the 'Princess', but, given that my home is the
Chesapeake, I suspect that an affair with a full keel boat will, in the
long run, prove to be less than satisfying. However, I confess that I
would like to hear to the contrary.
Last weekend I was sailing with a group on one of the few boats
willing to deal with strong shifting winds on the Chesapeake; the
conditions in which these boats would excel - saw a large Beneteau give
up. I was taking a sailing course in a small 22' - great way to really
get your feet wet. However, in July and August in the upper Chesapeake
I suspect that I would get pretty frustrated owning a full keel boat.
Again, I do not care much about speed - I do the swimming race across
the bay and I am trying to get away from that kind of competitive
upmanship. But I do not want, especially with an older boat, to rely
too heavily on the motor. I want a boat that I can regularly take down
the Chesapeake and back for 3-5 days by myself and sometimes with my
wife and teenage son. I want to hang out, take in my environs and have
lots of time to be with myself and write. But, as a retiring
triathlete/adventure racer I know that once I hone my skills I will
want to explore less accomodating waters, so I do not want a boat built
only for mellow moments.

wrote:\

... I came close last month to buying a beautifully
restored Allied 35' and I am very attracted to the 'Princess', but,
given that my home is the Chesapeake, I suspect that an affair with
a full keel boat will, in the long run, prove to be less than
satisfying ...

I don't immediately see why, assuming you buy "smart." On the Bay boats
that do well in light air are probably more "fun" but there is nothing
wrong with an old CCA design that good sails (and good sailing) won't fix.

... in July and
August in the upper Chesapeake I suspect that I would get pretty
frustrated owning a full keel boat ...

I think this is an oversimplification, but it is certainly true that the Bay
has its own character. Why not sail over to New England during August like
everyone else and be done with it?

... Again, I do not care much about speed ...

Did you not just indicate the opposite?

? ... But I do not
want, especially with an older boat, to rely too heavily on the
motor. I want a boat that I can regularly take down the Chesapeake
and back for 3-5 days by myself and sometimes with my wife and
teenage son ...

I have noticed that people who have to get back by Monday morning need a
reliable engine. My own solution was to retire early.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

On 27 Apr 2005 04:33:25 -0700, wrote:

I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling
wealthier).

Well, you have that part exactly right. Smaller is cheaper and cheaper
still on a per-foot basis. When I got my 33.5 footer in 1999, I was
squarely in the middle of boat size at my club. Six years on, and I am
at the high end of "small" and 27 footers stay unsold for months and
go for what is in my opinion a song. It's a great time to buy a 25-30
foot late '70s-1990 boat, I think. A friend here can't move an updated
race-winning '84 Newport 27 (essentially a C&C 27) for $15,000 Cdn.,
which is about $11,500 U.S.

The good news is that you can reasonably over-budget on the basis of
getting a circa 30 footer that is immaculate and/or discounted on the
basis of known and easily fixable stuff. Frequently you will see an
older fellow or couple who have been the single owners of a smaller
sailboat for 25 + years. The things frequently look factory, and some
have been incrementally improved (hot running water, newer electrical
panels, etc.) by owners who spend a long of time aboard.

Frequently, the only problems are old, sometimes original sails and/or
tired rigging. You can say that as you will need to buy these items,
you wish a discount. Frequently, you'll get it and then some, and with
new sails and rigging on a dry, tight, well-maintained boat, it's
essentially new at 15%-20% of the price of a comparably new boat...if
you can find anyone making a 30 foot or under boat that isn't a pure
one-design. The idea is that you get to buy a better boat for less,
and then do a major gear upgrade at once, given that the hull and
systems are either good or gone, but you'd probably change the sails
anyway.

R.

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:12:08 -0400, rhys wrote:

On 27 Apr 2005 04:33:25 -0700, wrote:

I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling
wealthier).

Well, you have that part exactly right. Smaller is cheaper and cheaper
still on a per-foot basis. When I got my 33.5 footer in 1999, I was
squarely in the middle of boat size at my club. Six years on, and I am
at the high end of "small" and 27 footers stay unsold for months and
go for what is in my opinion a song. It's a great time to buy a 25-30
foot late '70s-1990 boat, I think. A friend here can't move an updated
race-winning '84 Newport 27 (essentially a C&C 27) for $15,000 Cdn.,
which is about $11,500 U.S.

I agree that under 30' is a real buyer's market these days. There are
lots of sail away options at under $10K.

Frequently, the only problems are old, sometimes original sails and/or
tired rigging. You can say that as you will need to buy these items,
you wish a discount. Frequently, you'll get it and then some, and with
new sails and rigging on a dry, tight, well-maintained boat, it's
essentially new at 15%-20% of the price of a comparably new boat...if
you can find anyone making a 30 foot or under boat that isn't a pure
one-design. The idea is that you get to buy a better boat for less,
and then do a major gear upgrade at once, given that the hull and
systems are either good or gone, but you'd probably change the sails
anyway.

There is also a really enjoyable process in going out to buy a whole
bunch of new, cool stuff that makes it much more *your* boat than just
taking delivery of the whole package.

Ryk

(initiator of thread - thanks for keeping this discussion going) There
are definately lots of boats for sale in the 30' range and last weekend
at a large marina on the northern part of the Chesapeake I counted
relatively few boats under 32'; most being 38' and above (most of them
Hunters, Catalinas, and Beneteaus - in that order).
This question is directed at those who know something about
Bristols. I have been following the listings for five months now. I
copy the specs and I keep track of what the asking prices are. In
comparison to Tartans, C&C's, Sabres, etc., the variance in asking
price for the Bristol, whether it is the 31.1 or 35.5 (especially this
one) is much higher. And this wide range of asking prices (55-119k) is
within the same region and with what appear to me equally equipped and
aged boats. I have visited some of them them, though have not gotten to
the point where I have had them surveyed, so I do not know if there is
something fundamentally wrong with the ones in the 50-ish range and
something spectacular with those priced much higher. The cosmetically
cleaner boats are the pricier ones, but not so nice that they should be
priced 75% higher than the others. Sure, the Bristol may have a cult
following, but so does the Tartan 37, Ericson 38, Westsail 32, and the
Sabres, and I do not see a similar range in asking prices for these
boats. The Bristol has a lot of things going for it, but its downside
is also common knowledge. Is there something I am missing? Or are some
sellers irrational? Few are moving.
My hope is that if I remain patient the market will be more rational
toward the end of the season. But I am a new to this game. Any advice?

wrote:

My hope is that if I remain patient the market will be more rational
toward the end of the season. But I am a new to this game. Any advice?

Well-priced, well-found boats can be had at either end of the market.
What you are doing now could be termed due diligence. Keep asking lots
of questions.
Good luck and eventually good sailing!

rhys wrote:

On 27 Apr 2005 04:33:25 -0700, wrote:

I am definately thinking smaller (and feeling
wealthier).

Well, you have that part exactly right. Smaller is cheaper and cheaper
still on a per-foot basis. When I got my 33.5 footer in 1999, I was
squarely in the middle of boat size at my club. Six years on, and I am
at the high end of "small" and 27 footers stay unsold for months and
go for what is in my opinion a song. It's a great time to buy a 25-30
foot late '70s-1990 boat, I think. A friend here can't move an updated
race-winning '84 Newport 27 (essentially a C&C 27) for $15,000 Cdn.,
which is about $11,500 U.S.

Speaking of Newports, the 28 and 30 are some of the roomiest boats of their
size. They sail well too. I've never sailed the 28, but I think it's similar
to the 30 -- which I've sailed a lot. It's decent in light air, and handles a
breeze just fine (they're a Gary Mull design from San Francisco, where they're
still popular). For some reason these boats are pretty cheap. I've seen nice
Newport 30s for under 10 grand.

I'm also very partial to the Cal 27 II and III, which is a great sailor, and
also cheap. Same with the 34 -- which is larger but less expensive than some of
the boats mentioned. Some friends circumnavigated in one, so I trust it. If
you can find a Cal 2-30 they're a gem of a sailor and more modern looking too.
Cals aren't as fancy as some other boats, but they're well built, good sailors.

If you spend less money on the boat, you'll have more available for improving
and outfitting. I'd rather spend my money on new sails than a bunch of teak.

The good news is that you can reasonably over-budget on the basis of
getting a circa 30 footer that is immaculate and/or discounted on the
basis of known and easily fixable stuff. Frequently you will see an
older fellow or couple who have been the single owners of a smaller
sailboat for 25 + years. The things frequently look factory, and some
have been incrementally improved (hot running water, newer electrical
panels, etc.) by owners who spend a long of time aboard.

Frequently, the only problems are old, sometimes original sails and/or
tired rigging. You can say that as you will need to buy these items,
you wish a discount. Frequently, you'll get it and then some, and with
new sails and rigging on a dry, tight, well-maintained boat, it's
essentially new at 15%-20% of the price of a comparably new boat...if
you can find anyone making a 30 foot or under boat that isn't a pure
one-design. The idea is that you get to buy a better boat for less,
and then do a major gear upgrade at once, given that the hull and
systems are either good or gone, but you'd probably change the sails
anyway.

All good points. One advantage of popular mass-produced boats like Beneteaus
and Catalinas is that sails and other parts are more widely available, at lower
prices. Cals and Newports fall into this category too.

Also, Catalina has always made a lot of stuff in-house, and still offers better
support for their old boats than just about anybody.

Matt O.

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:59:11 -0400, "Matt O'Toole"
wrote:

I'm also very partial to the Cal 27 II and III, which is a great sailor, and
also cheap. Same with the 34 -- which is larger but less expensive than some of
the boats mentioned. Some friends circumnavigated in one, so I trust it. If
you can find a Cal 2-30 they're a gem of a sailor and more modern looking too.
Cals aren't as fancy as some other boats, but they're well built, good sailors.

We had several good experiences with Cal 2-30s chartered from private
owners. I second the suggestion. It is much narrower than modern boats
but does indeed look modern in profile.

The Cal has a decent sized mainsail, unlike many boats built a little
later, and it can be sailed without a headsail if desired.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab