BF wrote:
I've never seen a joker valve (lots of duck bills though).

Hmmmm....we may be talking about the same part, but Jabsco,
Wilcox-Crittenden, Groco and Jabsco all call it a joker valve in their
exploded parts views. The only mfr who calls 'em duckbills is SeaLand.


From my
visualization of your description what is probably happening when you
over-tighten the screws is not puckering of the sealing surface...

Yes, it is a puckering of single piece of rubber (the flange on the
joker valve) between the flange on the on discharge fitting and the pump
body. If over-tightened screws are backed out a bit within a short
period of time, the rubber regains its shape and seals the leak...but if
the screws remain too tight long enough, they deform the rubber
permanently...the only fix is a new joker valve.

but
deformation of the flanges between the screw points causing a reduction in
pressure between the two flange surfaces.

Huh????

O-rings seals, when properly designed and manufactured should be assembled
with their flanges in contact with each other, ie bottomed out. Obviously
referring to face seals here and not radial o-ring seals.

I think you just WAY over-complicated something that's really very
simple... All we're talking about here is two pieces of hardware
(usually hard PVC, but can be bronze on older toilets) with a flat piece
of rubber between 'em, held together by 2 or 4 screws.

You can see the parts in question in the exploded drawing of the Groco
Headmate he
http://www.groco.net/images/toilets/...-SM/HF-pg2.jpg (click
on the drawing to enlarge it to a readable size)... parts #14 (discharge
fitting connector) and 4 (pump body) with part #16 (joker valve) between
'em). It's the same on all toilets, and you can see by also going to
the drawing for the Raritan PH II he
http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/...Ephiiv0303.pdf

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Peggy:

I now have two new questions. Both illustrations of the joker valve
show it aligned in a vertical position. Is this necessary? I just
took my head apart and there was an 1/8" gap between the lips so it
leaked sewage back into the head. I don't remember what the
orentation of the slit was.

Second. I saw a three "lip" joker valve at West marine. Is that a
better arangement than the two lip valves shown in the diagrams?

Thanks for any information.

bill

Bill Deutschman, PhD Providing Laser Safety Training,
Oregon Laser Consultants Safety Audits, Computer Safety
455 Hillside Avenue Programs and CDRH Certification
Klamath Falls OR 97601-2337 for Laser Users.
541.882.3295

I now have two new questions. Both illustrations of the joker valve
show it aligned in a vertical position. Is this necessary?

When all else fails, follow the directions. A vertical alignment
does a better job of preventing leakage than horizontal...and in some
toilets, the fitting isn't exactly round. The joker valve only fits
correctly if aligned as shown in the drawing.

I just
took my head apart and there was an 1/8" gap between the lips so it
leaked sewage back into the head.

That's a good sized gap...and illustrates why joker valves should be
replaced at LEAST every two years...every year if you live aboard.
However a joker valve isn't supposed to prevent slow seepage, only a
flood. I suspect you aren't flushing long enough in the "dry" mode (if
you ever flush in the dry mode at all) to move the waste over the top of
the vented loop. Even if you have an electric toilet that doesn't have a
"dry" mode, the only thing that should run or seep back into the bowl is
clean flush water...if waste is running back, you aren't flushing long
enough.

I don't remember what the
orentation of the slit was.

Check the drawing for your toilet. If you don't have a drawing, you can
prob'ly pull one off the mfr's website...what's the make/model?

Second. I saw a three "lip" joker valve at West marine. Is that a
better arangement than the two lip valves shown in the diagrams?

The jury is out on that one. The X or + pattern was supposed to be an
improvement over the slit...but I know of a couple of mfrs who tried it,
then went back to the slit.

Have a happy Thanksgiving, y'all!
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Sorry Peggie, I seem to have lost you somewhere along the line.
Two topics, duck bill valves and o-rings. Very different things, indeed.
A "duck bill valve" is a type of valve like a "ball valve", "globe valve",
"check valve", etc. I'm not personally familiar with "joker valves" but my
comments regarding probable causes of leaks when the attaching screws are
"over tightened" is still a viable probability. At least as I visualize a
joker valve.
My comments regarding o-ring was in response to a comment of yours that
either said or implied that over tightening screws on an o-ring seal would
cause leakage. Obviously one should never "over tighten" any screws but the
probable failure in an o-ring seal situation is stripped or broken screws
and not leakage. An o-ring seal will be designed to have the flanges fully
closed when assembled.
BF


"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
news
BF wrote:
I've never seen a joker valve (lots of duck bills though).

Hmmmm....we may be talking about the same part, but Jabsco,
Wilcox-Crittenden, Groco and Jabsco all call it a joker valve in their
exploded parts views. The only mfr who calls 'em duckbills is SeaLand.


From my
visualization of your description what is probably happening when you
over-tighten the screws is not puckering of the sealing surface...

Yes, it is a puckering of single piece of rubber (the flange on the
joker valve) between the flange on the on discharge fitting and the pump
body. If over-tightened screws are backed out a bit within a short
period of time, the rubber regains its shape and seals the leak...but if
the screws remain too tight long enough, they deform the rubber
permanently...the only fix is a new joker valve.

but
deformation of the flanges between the screw points causing a reduction
in
pressure between the two flange surfaces.

Huh????

O-rings seals, when properly designed and manufactured should be
assembled
with their flanges in contact with each other, ie bottomed out.
Obviously
referring to face seals here and not radial o-ring seals.

I think you just WAY over-complicated something that's really very
simple... All we're talking about here is two pieces of hardware
(usually hard PVC, but can be bronze on older toilets) with a flat piece
of rubber between 'em, held together by 2 or 4 screws.

You can see the parts in question in the exploded drawing of the Groco
Headmate he
http://www.groco.net/images/toilets/...-SM/HF-pg2.jpg (click
on the drawing to enlarge it to a readable size)... parts #14 (discharge
fitting connector) and 4 (pump body) with part #16 (joker valve) between
'em). It's the same on all toilets, and you can see by also going to
the drawing for the Raritan PH II he
http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/...Ephiiv0303.pdf

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"

http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Sorry Peggie, I seem to have lost you somewhere along the line.
Two topics, duck bill valves and o-rings. Very different things, indeed.

Yes...they are. Dave originally posted a question about an o-ring...the
topic drifted to joker valves.

A "duck bill valve" is a type of valve like a "ball valve", "globe valve",
"check valve", etc.

It's also a rubber one-way valve...if you go here
http://www.sealandtechnology.com/prodrplc.asp and scroll almost to the
bottom of the page, you'll see (though not very well) a pair of 'em.

I'm not personally familiar with "joker valves"...

If you own a boat that has a toilet, you've apparently never done any
maintenance work on it...'cuz every marine toilet has one, and it gets
blamed--unjustly 99% of the time--for just about every toilet problem.
People even replace joker valves in an attempt to solve problems in the
flush water intake!

but my
comments regarding probable causes of leaks when the attaching screws are
"over tightened" is still a viable probability. At least as I visualize a
joker valve...

If you'll go to the drawings at links I posted previously, you won't
have to visualize one...you can see one.

My comments regarding o-ring was in response to a comment of yours that
either said or implied that over tightening screws on an o-ring seal would
cause leakage.

Overtightening screws on a GASKET...I'm not familiar with any
application using o-rings in which screws would be used.

Obviously one should never "over tighten" any screws but the
probable failure in an o-ring seal situation is stripped or broken screws
and not leakage. An o-ring seal will be designed to have the flanges fully
closed when assembled.

What if there are no flanges? Which there wouldn't be in the application
(threaded male cap with round o-ring between it and the female port in
the tank) that Dave asked about. Remember, we're not talking about a
seal that will have any pressure on it--as it would in a pipe
connection--just a cap in a hole in the top of a tank. It only needs to
be sealed sufficiently to prevent gasses from escaping from a
non-pressurize tank.
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
om...
Sorry Peggie, I seem to have lost you somewhere along the line.
Two topics, duck bill valves and o-rings. Very different things, indeed.

Yes...they are. Dave originally posted a question about an o-ring...the
topic drifted to joker valves.

A "duck bill valve" is a type of valve like a "ball valve", "globe
valve",
"check valve", etc.

It's also a rubber one-way valve...if you go here
http://www.sealandtechnology.com/prodrplc.asp and scroll almost to the
bottom of the page, you'll see (though not very well) a pair of 'em.

I'm not personally familiar with "joker valves"...

If you own a boat that has a toilet, you've apparently never done any
maintenance work on it...'cuz every marine toilet has one, and it gets
blamed--unjustly 99% of the time--for just about every toilet problem.
People even replace joker valves in an attempt to solve problems in the
flush water intake!


Don't! Just charter.

but my
comments regarding probable causes of leaks when the attaching screws
are
"over tightened" is still a viable probability. At least as I visualize
a
joker valve...

If you'll go to the drawings at links I posted previously, you won't
have to visualize one...you can see one.

My comments regarding o-ring was in response to a comment of yours that
either said or implied that over tightening screws on an o-ring seal
would
cause leakage.

Overtightening screws on a GASKET...I'm not familiar with any
application using o-rings in which screws would be used.


I've designed more than I would want to count. Almost all face seal
applications will involve some type of fastener, the exception being
threaded tube in a tube.

Obviously one should never "over tighten" any screws but the
probable failure in an o-ring seal situation is stripped or broken
screws
and not leakage. An o-ring seal will be designed to have the flanges
fully
closed when assembled.

What if there are no flanges? Which there wouldn't be in the application
(threaded male cap with round o-ring between it and the female port in
the tank) that Dave asked about. Remember, we're not talking about a
seal that will have any pressure on it--as it would in a pipe
connection--just a cap in a hole in the top of a tank. It only needs to
be sealed sufficiently to prevent gasses from escaping from a
non-pressurize tank.
--
Peggie
By definition a face seal has flanges (flanges = sealing faces). A radial
seal as you describe above may or may not require fasteners.
But the main point you missed is that my comments were meant to be generic,
not specific to Dave's problem. I just want to correct what some people may
have understood from your message, ie that one should NEVER tighten o-ring
seal screws fully. That may not have been what you intented but that was the
way I read it and therefore a possibility others could have read it that
was. You, being an acknowledged expert, anyone reading the same as me and
not knowing otherwise, may have taken it as truth.
BF


----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"

http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

In article ,
Peggie Hall wrote:

Second. I saw a three "lip" joker valve at West marine. Is that a
better arangement than the two lip valves shown in the diagrams?

The jury is out on that one. The X or + pattern was supposed to be an
improvement over the slit...but I know of a couple of mfrs who tried it,
then went back to the slit.

Here's a vote against the three "lip" jokers.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/