"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:18:02 GMT, "Roger Long" said:

I'd like to think I could teach them
to do the same thing the old way but, face it, they know about GPS,
they aren't going to be very interested in learning that, "other
stuff".

Not my experience. I'm teaching navigation to my 26 year old daughter, and
she's thrilled with how she can verify our position with an LOP and look
at
her DR plot and correlate it to the objects she sees. We have a LORAN
aboard, but so far it hasn't interested her.

Ohh stop...what utter nonsense. Interesting navigation occurs when you
can't see anything and there is nothing for the radar to see. Then do that
for 6 days. Then end up within 10 meters of where you aimed for.

On what does she base her LOP? Wishful thinking? A voice in her brain?
For the sake of rationale behavior teach her how to use the real tools than
you can teach her the hobby backups if she cares.

Jim Donohue

I beg to differ. For learning it isn't nonsense at all. Your use of
"all the tools" will be more competent and you will have back up
skills for power failure, fire that wipes out all your systems, etc.
if you know how to get around without any magic boxes. I don't think
anyone is saying not to teach or use electronics but that learning the
old skills and keeping those skills sharp is of great value. I know
I'm a much better aircraft navigator for having kept the Loran and GPS
dark for the first three years I flew the plane.

--

Roger Long



Ohh stop...what utter nonsense. Interesting navigation occurs when
you can't see anything and there is nothing for the radar to see.
Then do that

I agree that no accomplished boater would teach someone to navigate with
GPS alone. But it's the Newbies that buy a new boat, with all the bells
and whistles, except a chart, and fire out across the western end of
Lake Erie, only to run aground on a reel. Or like the boat last year
that ran into an island, at night, killing all 6 on board.

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:58:44 -0500, (Jim P.) wrote:
But it's the Newbies that buy a new boat, with all the bells
and whistles, except a chart, and fire out across the western end of
Lake Erie, only to run aground on a reel. Or like the boat last year
that ran into an island, at night, killing all 6 on board.

======================

Tragic but that kind of accident has been happening for a long time,
since well before the advent of GPS, LORAN or even RDF. It's just
Darwin doing his thing.

Sorry Roger...but the guy is not teaching all methods...he is teaching some
version of DR and coastal. He is deliberately not teaching GPS and Loran.
So he is busily training a 1975 sailor.

I would strongly hold for teaching all useful methods...but the important
ones first. In fact the first skill is the ability to read and interpret a
chart...which is I think the skill that is often missing in beginning
sailors. Then GPS. I would certainly teach DR and coastal...but as a
secondary to GPS.

How far do you plan to go on "teach all methods"? I can interpret and use
an old Loran with the delay numbers...but I would not teach it. Celestial
is the obvious issue. Would you teach celestial today to a prospective
cruiser? What level of celestial? The full set of star/moon techniques?
How about RDF?

As an aside virtually all Pacific cruisers as of a year or so ago had a
sextant on board...but virtually none had shot a positon in the last year.

Jim Donohue



"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I beg to differ. For learning it isn't nonsense at all. Your use of "all
the tools" will be more competent and you will have back up skills for
power failure, fire that wipes out all your systems, etc. if you know how
to get around without any magic boxes. I don't think anyone is saying not
to teach or use electronics but that learning the old skills and keeping
those skills sharp is of great value. I know I'm a much better aircraft
navigator for having kept the Loran and GPS dark for the first three years
I flew the plane.

--

Roger Long



Ohh stop...what utter nonsense. Interesting navigation occurs when you
can't see anything and there is nothing for the radar to see. Then do
that

And anyone who would teach a sailor to navigate without GPS is not only
incompetent as a navigation teacher but is willing to risk the well being of
another for some hobbyist view of the skill.

As soon as your student hits limited visibility she becomes a hazard to
herself and others.

Jim Donohue

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:51:28 -0800, "Jim Donohue"

said:

Not my experience. I'm teaching navigation to my 26 year old daughter,
and
she's thrilled with how she can verify our position with an LOP and look
at
her DR plot and correlate it to the objects she sees. We have a LORAN
aboard, but so far it hasn't interested her.

Ohh stop...what utter nonsense. Interesting navigation occurs when you
can't see anything and there is nothing for the radar to see. Then do
that
for 6 days. Then end up within 10 meters of where you aimed for.

Whatta jerk.

Interesting navigation is in the eye of the beholder, and to someone who
hasn't done it before it is as I described.

On what does she base her LOP? Wishful thinking? A voice in her brain?
For the sake of rationale behavior teach her how to use the real tools
than
you can teach her the hobby backups if she cares.

Same thing people doing piloting have been basing an LOP on for years.
Bearing taken with the hand bearing compass.

What seems to be your problem, Jim, wrong time of the month?

Only a fool would teach someone to navigate by GPS alone.

Jim Donohue wrote:
Sorry Roger...but the guy is not teaching all methods...he is teaching some
version of DR and coastal. He is deliberately not teaching GPS and Loran.
So he is busily training a 1975 sailor.

Sailors in 1975 were much better navigators than today.



I would strongly hold for teaching all useful methods...but the important
ones first. In fact the first skill is the ability to read and interpret a
chart...which is I think the skill that is often missing in beginning
sailors. Then GPS. I would certainly teach DR and coastal...but as a
secondary to GPS.

That makes as much sense as teaching 4th graders how to use a calculator
assuming they will figure out long division later. If someone was
insisting on receiving no more than an hour or so of instruction before
heading out, I might be tempted to show them a GPS, but if someone wants
to learn the basic methods they should learn them first.

Further, to fully appreciate a chart you must learn the basics of
piloting. You can explain variation and bearings, but they has no
meaning to beginners until the plot LOPs.


How far do you plan to go on "teach all methods"? I can interpret and use
an old Loran with the delay numbers...but I would not teach it. Celestial
is the obvious issue. Would you teach celestial today to a prospective
cruiser? What level of celestial? The full set of star/moon techniques?
How about RDF?

These are silly comparisons. Basic DR and piloting techniques are used
all the time even in our GPS oriented world. Loran and celestial are
not. However, a few of the basics should be taught - I'm surprised at
how many people can't instantly find Polaris, or know the approximate
bearing of the rising or setting Sun or Moon.




As an aside virtually all Pacific cruisers as of a year or so ago had a
sextant on board...but virtually none had shot a positon in the last year.


Is there a point here? I'll bet that the majority of them knew the
basics of DR and piloting. Or are you claiming they don't bother
because they have faith in their GPS?

Jim Donohue wrote:
And anyone who would teach a sailor to navigate without GPS is not only
incompetent as a navigation teacher but is willing to risk the well being of
another for some hobbyist view of the skill.


Gawd, what a stupid statement! Are you trying to replace Jax as our
resident idiot?

As soon as your student hits limited visibility she becomes a hazard to
herself and others.

And you would send a novice out in the fog because they know how to turn
on a GPS?

The bottom line is that a large number of sailors never go venture
outside of a relatively protected area. For example, hundreds of
sailors sail around Boston Harbor every day. I doubt that many of them
even have a GPS on board, but I hope they know the basics of piloting.

Your ludicrous statements only make sense if the student is headed out
tomorrow on their own boat; in reality most will not leave the harbor on
their own for a few years.




Jim Donohue

"Dave" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:51:28 -0800, "Jim Donohue"

said:


Not my experience. I'm teaching navigation to my 26 year old daughter,
and
she's thrilled with how she can verify our position with an LOP and look
at
her DR plot and correlate it to the objects she sees. We have a LORAN
aboard, but so far it hasn't interested her.

Ohh stop...what utter nonsense. Interesting navigation occurs when you
can't see anything and there is nothing for the radar to see. Then do
that
for 6 days. Then end up within 10 meters of where you aimed for.

Whatta jerk.

Interesting navigation is in the eye of the beholder, and to someone who
hasn't done it before it is as I described.


On what does she base her LOP? Wishful thinking? A voice in her brain?
For the sake of rationale behavior teach her how to use the real tools
than
you can teach her the hobby backups if she cares.

Same thing people doing piloting have been basing an LOP on for years.
Bearing taken with the hand bearing compass.

What seems to be your problem, Jim, wrong time of the month?

Only a fool would teach someone to navigate by GPS alone.

Read Jim D's post..... and I'm sitting here shaking my head in a
negative fashion.
I'd comment on your comments, Jim, but I've come to realize that you
just don't get it.
Shame of it is, there's so many more like you out there ....

BTW, Your aside? That's a stupid excuse, not a reason.... you sure
you're not a lawyer?

otn

I taught just one coastal piloting class and then got promoted at my
day job and gave up being a sailing instructor on the side.

This was before even Loran was common on smaller cruisers so use of
electronics was not an issue. I had the people for about five
sessions followed by a short day trip to get them ready for sailing
around Boston Harbor and the adjoining coast so it had to be pretty
basic.

I started by saying, "I'm going to teach you to do about six simple
things. It doesn't sound like much but I want you to be able to do
them when you are tired, when you are seasick, when you are confused,
and when you are scared. I want you to practice and do them all the
time in good weather. If you wait until you need this knowledge and
haven't practiced, it isn't going to do you much good. There is no
such thing as finding out where you are, there is only keeping track
of where you are."

In all the sailing I did in New England, including long runs in fog,
I never really used much more than I taught in that class. I'm a
great believer in keeping it simple.

--

Roger Long