Even more important than the "droop" is the limited (almost non-existent) extension
available to an all chain system. What its really needed is enough nylon to allow for
5 or 10 feet, or more, of stretch.



"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:rUtjd.90348$bk1.52418@fed1read05...

"Amgine" wrote in message
om...
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:X2Uid.82404$bk1.80735@fed1read05...
The problems is
that above 35 knots of wind or so you have a straight rode.

Uhm, maybe for your boat. In fact, just last weekend I was anchored
out in 30 gusting 45 and neither chain+rope rode was bar-taut. On the
other hand, I was wishing I had a bit more chain on both because I
didn't have quite enough out for the weather (7:1 on a 7.5kg Bruce,
and 5:1 on a 25lb. CQR) as I'd anchored 8 hours before the peak of the
blow.

To get a reasonable amount of shock absorption with all-chain, use a
chain hook on about 30-40' of light nylon laid line and veer out a few
more feet of chain. You'll get all the spring you want, but if there's
much fetch you don't want too slack a chain to save your bows from a
beating.

I've never used either a kellet or buoy, but I'd like to experiment
with both. Who has used which?

Amgine
http://wiki.saewyc.net/

See Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring by Hinz page 113. On the ABYC
hypothetical power boat of 45 feet and 15 foot beam the cantenary has 1 foot of
"droop"per 100 feet of rode at 30 knots and 0 feet at 40 knots. If your boat is
smaller and has a smaller section it may be a little higher.

Hinz advocates the use of chain riding stoppers for all chain boats. He points out
that all chain rodes are very good at parting or destroying something in high winds.
They are also sufficiently noisey in high wind conditions to make sleep difficult.

Jim Donohue

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message ...
Even more important than the "droop" is the limited (almost non-existent) extension
available to an all chain system. What its really needed is enough nylon to allow for
5 or 10 feet, or more, of stretch.



See Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring by Hinz page 113. On the ABYC
hypothetical power boat of 45 feet and 15 foot beam the cantenary has 1 foot of
"droop"per 100 feet of rode at 30 knots and 0 feet at 40 knots. If your boat is
smaller and has a smaller section it may be a little higher.

Hinz advocates the use of chain riding stoppers for all chain boats. He points out
that all chain rodes are very good at parting or destroying something in high winds.
They are also sufficiently noisey in high wind conditions to make sleep difficult.

Jim Donohue

I will look for the Hinz book. I can attest to the noise, though only
rarely is it enough to keep me up (the waves and wind, on the other
hand, keep me hopping on a breezy night.)

IMO, from my experience using a *long* snubber of 30-40 foot of small
nylon, a chain rode can be made quite springy. The only problem I had
was pitching to a single anchor when I had too much slack in the
chain. After listening to it beat up the bow for a couple minutes I
hauled in most of the slack and things were great for the rest of the
night, but the damage to gelcoat was already done and resulted in
painting the entire topsides.

Something I haven't tried, but a fellow club member does, is using an
unusually small diameter line and a longer than usual scope. I have
watched him anchor in a fairly open range with what I consider to be a
grossly inadequate anchor on 3/8 nylon at about 8:1, with no problems.
He claims the smaller diameter has a high enough breaking strength for
the job, but is stretchier in the gusts/waves and thus both gentler to
ride to and lower jerk loads to break the anchor out.

Has anyone had any first-hand experience with Kellets or Buoys?

Amgine
http://wiki.saewyc.net/

did any of you clowns EVER hear of a
mooring??????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????
???????

From: "Jeff Morris"
Date: 11/5/2004 9:10 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" wrote in message
.. .
Kellets increase effective scope. Buoys decrease it.


Yes, that's the key. Kellets are only really useful when you can't put out
enough
scope. Most anchors are optimized for an upward pull at 8 to 12 degrees, so
they
shouldn't pull out if the scope is 7 to 1 or better, especially if the
there's a
healthy bit of chain.

The other interesting property of a kellet is that boats that horse around an
anchor
may be quieter if a kellet is lowered down so that it rests on the bottom.
This
approximates a hammerlock setup, which is a small anchor on very short scope
added to
keep the bow stable. When I had a Nonsuch I kept a dinghy anchor for that
purpose.

And while a kellet may provide some shock absorbing in a limited scope,
moderate wind
situation, it gives little advantage if longer scope is used. (And I'm sure
we all
know by now, a caternary, as the term is used in anchoring, has virtually no
shock
absorbing quality.) Also, the OP mentioned it in terms of an all chain
rode, but
I've almost always heard of it used with a mixed chain/rope rode.

A buoyed anchor rode is used by fishing boats anchoring in a large sea - I'm
not sure
its relevant to cruising boats. I suppose it might be handy in an area of
coral heads
to keep the scope small in lighter air.

Terry, don't confuse these guys with facts. They were going off in all
directions at one time and here you come along and make sense. You will have
them spinning in circles for weeks.

From: Terry Spragg
Date: 11/5/2004 2:37 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Marc Auslander wrote:

I have read, and it seems plausible, that in bad enough conditions, a
kellet does no good because it can't really deflect the rode very
much. And it may cause trouble if it starts to bounce up and down -
pulling up on the rode on the upswings. I would think a mooring ball
would similarly fail under extreme load.


Strange how similar in effect kellet and float are, and how different.

The ball sinks, deflecting the snubbing chain / painter junction to
a degree adjustable at the painter end. Once it floats, it implies
that mooring forces are minimalised. Any tangle occurs at the surface.

A kellet can only effect snubbing to one degree, unless it slides
and is adjustable. Once it rests on the bottom, it implies that the
mooring forces are minimalised. There is also a tangle possible, at
the bottom.

A longer float painter can produce a larger and more gentle
anti-snubbing force in either analysis.

Under the most demanding conditions, both a kellet and a float with
a long painter totalling sufficient scope are best, wether at
anchor or mooring weight. A strong nylon painter is preferrable to a
light floating painter, except if the tide and wind conspire, until
the floating painter is wound around the keel root. That is probably
easier to clean up than is a tangle on the bottom.

Perhaps a cart before the horse? A float with a long painter and a
kellet on the painter between the float and the boat? Perhaps a
daisy chain of floats with kellets suspended barely above the
bottom? Perhaps even a clothesline or string, with which to bring
the moored boat's stern within wading distance of the shore, or
floating dock out to the boat? (I draw 2'-10".) I presently can draw
the dinghy out to the mooring using a messenger cable instead of
oars, but the dinghy is too small for that to be really convenient.
Cable ferries are common out here.

We do get some medium sized wakes.

This ties in with a desire to provide isolated bifilar hydro to my
moored boat, perhaps via a mooring raft made of tires on wheels?
That would require a swivel above the float and a strong stainless
steel messenger wire to the shore, such as I presently use to
retrieve the sunken mooring chain after the ice goes out. A two wire
extension cord, isolated, in fresh water, may work out well. How
much current would you expect a similar circuit to draw if the
outlet was dropped in salt water? How dangerous would you expect
such a mishap to be?

I get a feeling that might not be a bad plan, and see that there may
be no tangle, despite wind and tide conspiracies, except I cannot
really trust what such a daisy chain might do under Murphy's
influence. I'm gonna give it a try. Any experiences? Any bets?

Perhaps pennant is a better word?

Terry K


(Steve Smith) writes:


Hi all

Having looked at Chapman's 'Piloting, Seamanship and Small Boat
Handling' (now available in your local library for UK readers), I was
a bit surprised to see recommended that a mooring-type buoy be used
rather than attaching some other flotation to the intact anchor chain
(one more link to go wrong). I think Hinz discusses this in his books
but I haven't managed to get hold of any in the UK.

I know this method of anchoring is for extreme conditions but has
anyone any experience with it or the alternative method of using
weights slid down the rode. I would guess there is a better argument
for avoiding shock loading than there is for anchor dragging and that
the buoy method is better at doing this.
I am assuming all chain here due to chafe resistance.

Regards

Steve

Remove defcv if etc.

Actually neither the ball no the kellet has any effect in extreme
conditions.

I have seen mooring balls work just fine in upwards of sustained storm force
winds.

HEAVY kellets (25# each, and often two or three on a rode) are sometimes used
to overcome the inherent dangers of an all chain rode, at least up to 35+ knots
of wind, then chain and nylon is used.

The downside of
course is you really need to maintain a nylon rode under such
conditions...rigging chaff protection or letting out small increments to
minimize chaff.

nylon rode in heavy weather conditions should have "safety" lines attached to
take the chafe, sometime two safety lines. A safety line takes 100% of the
chafe load until it gives up (if it should give up) at which point the second
safety line takes 100% of the chafe load, etc. safety lines are rolling
hitched onto the nylon (or chain ****IF**** the safety line is
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooo
ooooooooooooooooooooooong enough to give shock attenuation to the chain, i.e.
safety line lengths of 50 to 100 feet), the first safety line tight, with the
second line loose as a back up in case the first safety line gives up, the
anchor rode loose upline from the safety line(s).

A proper safety line will be wormed (if twisted line), parceled and served with
Spectra line (Spectra fishing line is a good source) to form a serious hard
spot where the safety line goes through the chock.

To get a reasonable amount of shock absorption with all-chain, use a
chain hook on about 30-40' ...

doesn't give all that much shock attenuation. much better is double triple
that amount of nylon. specs of rope manufactureres give nylon stretch at least
than about 4% (many writers/posters who didn't bother read the spec sheets talk
of 15% to 25% stretch, but the line won't go that except sometimes under
breaking conditions), except for special mountain climbing ropes and "plait".

... of light nylon laid line and veer out a few
more feet of chain.

ten foot of stretch on standard twisted nylon is about 150' to 250' of nylon,
except under line breaking conditions.

From: "Jeff Morris"
Date: 11/7/2004 4:55 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Even more important than the "droop" is the limited (almost non-existent)
extension
available to an all chain system. What its really needed is enough nylon to
allow for
5 or 10 feet, or more, of stretch.



"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:rUtjd.90348$bk1.52418@fed1read05...

"Amgine" wrote in message
om...
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:X2Uid.82404$bk1.80735@fed1read05...
The problems is
that above 35 knots of wind or so you have a straight rode.

Uhm, maybe for your boat. In fact, just last weekend I was anchored
out in 30 gusting 45 and neither chain+rope rode was bar-taut. On the
other hand, I was wishing I had a bit more chain on both because I
didn't have quite enough out for the weather (7:1 on a 7.5kg Bruce,
and 5:1 on a 25lb. CQR) as I'd anchored 8 hours before the peak of the
blow.

To get a reasonable amount of shock absorption with all-chain, use a
chain hook on about 30-40' of light nylon laid line and veer out a few
more feet of chain. You'll get all the spring you want, but if there's
much fetch you don't want too slack a chain to save your bows from a
beating.

I've never used either a kellet or buoy, but I'd like to experiment
with both. Who has used which?

Amgine
http://wiki.saewyc.net/

See Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring by Hinz page 113. On the ABYC
hypothetical power boat of 45 feet and 15 foot beam the cantenary has 1
foot of
"droop"per 100 feet of rode at 30 knots and 0 feet at 40 knots. If your
boat is
smaller and has a smaller section it may be a little higher.

Hinz advocates the use of chain riding stoppers for all chain boats. He
points out
that all chain rodes are very good at parting or destroying something in
high winds.
They are also sufficiently noisey in high wind conditions to make sleep
difficult.

Jim Donohue

check out "plait" line. even more stretch without reaching
breaking/deformation limits.

From: (Amgine)
Date: 11/9/2004 5:25 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Even more important than the "droop" is the limited (almost non-existent)
extension
available to an all chain system. What its really needed is enough nylon
to allow for
5 or 10 feet, or more, of stretch.



See Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring by Hinz page 113. On the ABYC

hypothetical power boat of 45 feet and 15 foot beam the cantenary has 1
foot of
"droop"per 100 feet of rode at 30 knots and 0 feet at 40 knots. If your
boat is
smaller and has a smaller section it may be a little higher.

Hinz advocates the use of chain riding stoppers for all chain boats. He
points out
that all chain rodes are very good at parting or destroying something in
high winds.
They are also sufficiently noisey in high wind conditions to make sleep
difficult.

Jim Donohue

I will look for the Hinz book. I can attest to the noise, though only
rarely is it enough to keep me up (the waves and wind, on the other
hand, keep me hopping on a breezy night.)

IMO, from my experience using a *long* snubber of 30-40 foot of small
nylon, a chain rode can be made quite springy. The only problem I had
was pitching to a single anchor when I had too much slack in the
chain. After listening to it beat up the bow for a couple minutes I
hauled in most of the slack and things were great for the rest of the
night, but the damage to gelcoat was already done and resulted in
painting the entire topsides.

Something I haven't tried, but a fellow club member does, is using an
unusually small diameter line and a longer than usual scope. I have
watched him anchor in a fairly open range with what I consider to be a
grossly inadequate anchor on 3/8 nylon at about 8:1, with no problems.
He claims the smaller diameter has a high enough breaking strength for
the job, but is stretchier in the gusts/waves and thus both gentler to
ride to and lower jerk loads to break the anchor out.

Has anyone had any first-hand experience with Kellets or Buoys?

Amgine
http://wiki.saewyc.net/

Yet another topic where jaxie can show his ignorance. NE Ropes says at 15% of
breaking strength elongation is 15%. Marlow has similar numbers. But what would
they know?
http://www.neropes.com/techdata/3strand.pdf

One can debate whether 15% of tensile strength is a proper safety factor, but for a
snubber its not that critical. This works out to snubbers in the range of 30 to 60
feet. Personally, the need to rig snubbers was one of the issues that led me to stop
using all-chain and go to a mixed chain/nylon rode.


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
ten foot of stretch on standard twisted nylon is about 150' to 250' of nylon,
except under line breaking conditions.

From: "Jeff Morris"
Date: 11/7/2004 4:55 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

Even more important than the "droop" is the limited (almost non-existent)
extension
available to an all chain system. What its really needed is enough nylon to
allow for
5 or 10 feet, or more, of stretch.



"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:rUtjd.90348$bk1.52418@fed1read05...

"Amgine" wrote in message
om...
"Jim Donohue" wrote in message
news:X2Uid.82404$bk1.80735@fed1read05...
The problems is
that above 35 knots of wind or so you have a straight rode.

Uhm, maybe for your boat. In fact, just last weekend I was anchored
out in 30 gusting 45 and neither chain+rope rode was bar-taut. On the
other hand, I was wishing I had a bit more chain on both because I
didn't have quite enough out for the weather (7:1 on a 7.5kg Bruce,
and 5:1 on a 25lb. CQR) as I'd anchored 8 hours before the peak of the
blow.

To get a reasonable amount of shock absorption with all-chain, use a
chain hook on about 30-40' of light nylon laid line and veer out a few
more feet of chain. You'll get all the spring you want, but if there's
much fetch you don't want too slack a chain to save your bows from a
beating.

I've never used either a kellet or buoy, but I'd like to experiment
with both. Who has used which?

Amgine
http://wiki.saewyc.net/

See Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring by Hinz page 113. On the ABYC
hypothetical power boat of 45 feet and 15 foot beam the cantenary has 1
foot of
"droop"per 100 feet of rode at 30 knots and 0 feet at 40 knots. If your
boat is
smaller and has a smaller section it may be a little higher.

Hinz advocates the use of chain riding stoppers for all chain boats. He
points out
that all chain rodes are very good at parting or destroying something in
high winds.
They are also sufficiently noisey in high wind conditions to make sleep
difficult.

Jim Donohue