Cannibal
"Bob" wrote in message
... Wilbur Hubbard (wishing I were about forty years younger) I dont want to waste my time finding your original post. However, the one I recall that cought my eye was your statment that anchor rode should be 3 strand nylon. Here I completly disagree in one aspect. Yes, 3 strand is okay for day anchors in winds below 20 k how ever in conditions where "extream" loads are experinced nylon double braid is best. Why? It wont hockle and part do to the hockle. Yes double braid has less stretch but if you ballance the correct working load, length, and chain/line ratio it will counter the reduced stratch. Your ground tackle In a survival situation should be double braid not 3 strand. And i dont give a **** what Ocean Navigator or Cruising WOrld mag you quote. Recreational sailing advice/best practices is driven by marketing stratiges to get you to buy a product or erronious tradition. Do a review of the approperate case studies and youll find that rodes part in three typical places: 1) Chafe point where line gets fair lead through a closed chock on deck. ( this can be cured) 2) standing part of line due to hockle (this can be cured with double braid) 3) eye splice/shackle connection to chain. (this can be cured) This aint briain surgury its jsut plain riggin. BOb More lack of experience with small sailboats noted. Now, I know why Joe thinks you're woefully uninformed. First off, I never said "all nylon rode" as I've always been a proponent of eight to ten feet of heavy chain attached to the anchor then a shackle and eye-spliced nylon around a thimble. Now that I'm well off and retired I even use stainless steel chain lengths. An all-chain rode (and you need at least two minimum, preferable three at the ready) is untenable because of way too much weight which will compromise a small vessel's ability to sail. Hockling is NO PROBLEM unless you anchor for days or weeks at a time and go round and round on the anchor. Even then a wise sailor like myself will have a swivel attached to the rode so it can't twist and hockle. ANY time you see a hockled rode you are seeing ineptitude and neglect. Wake up! Three-strand is easy to eye splice. Double-braid is a real pain in the ass. Three-strand is more stretchy which is exactly what one wants in an anchor rode to reduce shock loads on attachment points. Three-strand molds and mildews far less. Three strand is less expensive. Only an ignorant sailor thinks double-braid is the superior choice for an anchor rode. Wilbur Hubbard |
Cannibal
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m... That's not what the magazine article that he read said though! Stow it! I speak from 35 years of ACTIVE sailing and living aboard experience. As is the usual case, Bob is ill-informed. He seems to delight in displaying his usual lack of due diligence and presumptuous mental impecuniousness See my reply to the PUTZ, further up this thread, debunking his misconceptions. Wilbur Hubbard |
Cannibal
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m... Bob wrote: Wilbur Hubbard (wishing I were about forty years younger) I dont want to waste my time finding your original post. However, the one I recall that cought my eye was your statment that anchor rode should be 3 strand nylon. Here I completly disagree in one aspect. Yes, 3 strand is okay for day anchors in winds below 20 k how ever in conditions where "extream" loads are experinced nylon double braid is best. Why? It wont hockle and part do to the hockle. Yes double braid has less stretch but if you ballance the correct working load, length, and chain/line ratio it will counter the reduced stratch. Your ground tackle In a survival situation should be double braid not 3 strand. And i dont give a **** what Ocean Navigator or Cruising WOrld mag you quote. Recreational sailing advice/best practices is driven by marketing stratiges to get you to buy a product or erronious tradition. Do a review of the approperate case studies and youll find that rodes part in three typical places: 1) Chafe point where line gets fair lead through a closed chock on deck. ( this can be cured) 2) standing part of line due to hockle (this can be cured with double braid) 3) eye splice/shackle connection to chain. (this can be cured) This aint briain surgury its jsut plain riggin. BOb BOb, Would a swivel shackle help prevent 3 braid hockle? Bingo! But, unless one anchors for a long time and goes around and around, no such device is necessary. It takes many, many, many times boxing the compass before hockling rears it's ugly head. If you don't have a swivel the simple expedient of rotating the bitter end of the rode in the opposite direction your vessel boxes the compass will relax the twist and set it aright. Hockling is nothing but a symptom of ignorance and neglect. Wilbur Hubbard |
Cannibal
What they ask for, if it's included in "mariners documents" category and what they look at are two different things. I apologize for my hasty reply. A liscensed master or a mariner with a rating now carries a Merchant Mariner Credential (MMC). They are orange and look just like a US Passport. It takes the place of the "Z Card" and that pretty 25 ton master license proudly hanging onyour wall. I do better with more accurate and detaild reples so not to add to the banter. Besides, what if I'm not carrying passengers for hire? Its very simple I a person has a USCG master license they are required to have a TWIC. The CG assumes the license is for those who actually use it for work not for an ego stroking wall art. What the hell do I need a TWIC card for? CFRs require it for all people needing dock acess for thier job. But since you dont sail your license you reall have no use for either a TWIC or that master license (sutible for framing and display) Hang on to that purdy license. You wont ever get another one. Give me a break, dOOd! Stop with the Big Brother, love attitude. PUTZ! Dood then stop voting for republicans! They have consistantly grown our national debt and taken our personal freedoms more than any group in moder history. Bob Wilbur Hubbard |
Cannibal
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:23:17 -0800 (PST), Bob wrote: As for being pooped, boat length has nothing to do with it. If the wave travels faster then the boat you get pooped, if the boat is at wave speed, or faster, then you don't. But then, you don't have to read a book to discover that little gem... just go sailing. My dear Bruce. I belive the defintion of getting pooped is when water is shiped on deck. TO have a wave pass the boat is simply that: a wave going by. Please forgive me if I misunderstood your post. Bob I suspect that you are correct and I was guilty of jumping to the conclusion that Willie was talking about running before the wind as a storm tactic, in which case being pooped is usually when you aren't traveling at wave speed and the waves are breaking over the stern. Cheers, Bruce What a simpleton! A ballasted, monohull sailboat will not be able to outrun the wave train. Fast multi-hulls may but the type of sailboat under discussion here will have waves approach from astern (when running which is the hoped-for case in the trades and elsewhere as in 'fair winds') slip under the stern or quarter and move away from the bow. If the wavelength happens to be (because of any number of diverse conditions of wind, sea and depth) just slightly different than LOA, as the bow is lifted by the wave exiting the bow the stern falls into the trough just in time to have the top of the wave approaching from the stern poop it. Pah! You must have been lying about voyaging - either that or too drunk or asleep to observe how things work. Wilbur Hubbard Talk about simpletons.. I've seem video of a TP53 doing 25 knots - yes, under sail! -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
Cannibal
"CaveLamb" wrote in message
m... Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "Bruce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:23:17 -0800 (PST), Bob wrote: As for being pooped, boat length has nothing to do with it. If the wave travels faster then the boat you get pooped, if the boat is at wave speed, or faster, then you don't. But then, you don't have to read a book to discover that little gem... just go sailing. My dear Bruce. I belive the defintion of getting pooped is when water is shiped on deck. TO have a wave pass the boat is simply that: a wave going by. Please forgive me if I misunderstood your post. Bob I suspect that you are correct and I was guilty of jumping to the conclusion that Willie was talking about running before the wind as a storm tactic, in which case being pooped is usually when you aren't traveling at wave speed and the waves are breaking over the stern. Cheers, Bruce What a simpleton! A ballasted, monohull sailboat will not be able to outrun the wave train. Fast multi-hulls may but the type of sailboat under discussion here will have waves approach from astern (when running which is the hoped-for case in the trades and elsewhere as in 'fair winds') slip under the stern or quarter and move away from the bow. If the wavelength happens to be (because of any number of diverse conditions of wind, sea and depth) just slightly different than LOA, as the bow is lifted by the wave exiting the bow the stern falls into the trough just in time to have the top of the wave approaching from the stern poop it. Pah! You must have been lying about voyaging - either that or too drunk or asleep to observe how things work. Wilbur Hubbard Talk about simpletons.. I've seem video of a TP53 doing 25 knots - yes, under sail! OMG! Try reading with comprehension. We are talking here about ballasted, cruising sailboats which are limited to a concept called "hull speed." Race boats are not cruising boats in case you've not noticed. Wilbur Hubbard |
Cannibal
Wilbur Hubbard wrote:
"CaveLamb" wrote in message m... Wilbur Hubbard wrote: "Bruce" wrote in message ... On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:23:17 -0800 (PST), Bob wrote: As for being pooped, boat length has nothing to do with it. If the wave travels faster then the boat you get pooped, if the boat is at wave speed, or faster, then you don't. But then, you don't have to read a book to discover that little gem... just go sailing. My dear Bruce. I belive the defintion of getting pooped is when water is shiped on deck. TO have a wave pass the boat is simply that: a wave going by. Please forgive me if I misunderstood your post. Bob I suspect that you are correct and I was guilty of jumping to the conclusion that Willie was talking about running before the wind as a storm tactic, in which case being pooped is usually when you aren't traveling at wave speed and the waves are breaking over the stern. Cheers, Bruce What a simpleton! A ballasted, monohull sailboat will not be able to outrun the wave train. Fast multi-hulls may but the type of sailboat under discussion here will have waves approach from astern (when running which is the hoped-for case in the trades and elsewhere as in 'fair winds') slip under the stern or quarter and move away from the bow. If the wavelength happens to be (because of any number of diverse conditions of wind, sea and depth) just slightly different than LOA, as the bow is lifted by the wave exiting the bow the stern falls into the trough just in time to have the top of the wave approaching from the stern poop it. Pah! You must have been lying about voyaging - either that or too drunk or asleep to observe how things work. Wilbur Hubbard Talk about simpletons.. I've seem video of a TP53 doing 25 knots - yes, under sail! OMG! Try reading with comprehension. We are talking here about ballasted, cruising sailboats which are limited to a concept called "hull speed." Race boats are not cruising boats in case you've not noticed. Wilbur Hubbard You wish! quote (right above) A ballasted, monohull sailboat -- Richard Lamb email me: web site: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb |
Cannibal
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:16:57 -0800 (PST), Bob
wrote: CFRs require it for all people needing dock acess for thier job. But since you dont sail your license you reall have no use for either a TWIC or that master license (sutible for framing and display) Hang on to that purdy license. The latest CFRs actually go farther than that. They say that without a TWIC card your Masters ticket or OUPV are no longer valid. |
Cannibal
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:16:57 -0800 (PST), Bob wrote: CFRs require it for all people needing dock acess for thier job. But since you dont sail your license you reall have no use for either a TWIC or that master license (sutible for framing and display) Hang on to that purdy license. The latest CFRs actually go farther than that. They say that without a TWIC card your Masters ticket or OUPV are no longer valid. There will be lawsuits. The government sold you something you paid good money for and invested good time for that gave you certain rights and privileges and now they say it's no longer valid. That is fraud in anybody's book. Wilbur Hubbard |
Cannibal
First off, I never said "all nylon rode" as I've always been a proponent of eight to ten feet of heavy chain attached to the anchor then a shackle and eye-spliced nylon around a thimble. Now that I'm well off and retired I even use stainless steel chain lengths. That may be well and good for your smaller day sailor but heavier boats who anchor in places with unknown bottom obstructions or lack a slip to retreat to when small craft or storm warnings are raised may use a different arrangment. Personallly I have two ground tackel legs each is 300'. 150' of 3/8" HT chain followed by 150' of double braid line. NO SWIVEL. I use a snubber on the chain if I use less than 150' but if weather comes up I ease out more scope . when i do that i now have the double braid in the water plus increased scope plus 150' of chain (which act as cantanery) . But of course when just passing through and expect easy weather I use something different I think recreational sailors call it a "day hook." OH, the big difernce I do is I have my bow cleats located on the toe rail area. Why...... look how deck cleats are positioned on CG 47' lifeboats, tugs and other safely designed workboats. When a line is passed through a closed chock located at the toe rail the line has an increased posibility of parting when loads approach BS of line. That is why the cleat goes on the toe rail area. I, of course, had to reinforce the deck to hull joint and add bracing and extra glass on the inside of the boat in my case the anchor locker area. I dont want the cleats to pull out or take a chunk of my boat when a 26,000 lb strain was placed on the cleat. Fortunalty, do to planning, I have not expeienced anchoring in sustained 90k+ winds............ so to be honest I dont if it will work. I have sat nicely in sustained 50k gusts to 80k... Hockling is NO PROBLEM unless you anchor for days or weeks at a time and go round and round on the anchor. The other condition when hockeling occures is when 3 strand is loaded beond its SWL and put under repeating loads. Youknow.... as in anchoring with a swell. that constant slack-load-slack-load will cause the 3 strand to do all sorts of movement. There several toys that demonstrate that action nicely. Three-strand is easy to eye splice. Double-braid is a real pain in the ass. 3 strand is easy yes..... for some. Double braid is also easy for some...... I am able to make a simple 7/8" double braid eye splice in about 20 minuits. Of course my firs half dozen took almost an hour each. But when its quiet on the bridge its a good way for an AB suck up to the captain learning a new skill instead of sittin in the ness drinking coffee or taling on the cell phone. I dont attempt splicing used line. To many tricks I dont kow about with that stuff. But new DB is very easy to work with. Three-strand is more stretchy which is exactly what one wants in an anchor rode to reduce shock loads on attachment points. This is the common montra found in recrational sailing magzines.Yes, 3 strand nylon typically has a stratch Samson 3 strand Elastic Elongation... Total stretch of 35% at 75% of break strength and 42% at break At % break strength: 10%-7.8% 20%-11.3% 30%- 15.9% New England Double braid nylon Elastic Elongation At % break strength: 10%-3.5% 20%-5.6% 30%-8.5% So if I have 150' of DB line 150 x 8.5% = 12.75 feet of give. PLUS the small cantanary from the 150' chain and Im just fine. So the question is my dear friend is................. how much play is adiquite for a given boat and given wave chariteristeics and given wind For me 12 feet stretch is what I prefer. I havnt ripped any deck hard wear off my boat nor have I parted any lines. I hope this is detailed enough Willbur. Three-strand molds and mildews far less. Three strand is less expensive. A folly of comparisons. You may be a broke ass nigga I on the other hand have a sizable investment to protect. Me and my boat. I use materials best paired with a system and application. Only an ignorant sailor thinks double-braid is the superior choice for an anchor rode. Wilbur Hubbard Go vist Samson or England Rope and look at the Professional Marine products ..... chose anchoring and docking. While your looking review the other specility line product catigories. read and learn. Only the cookasses in Louisiana still use 3 strand for dock n hang off lines cause they are too stupid to be able to read and learn the DB splicing instructions. The more professional boat companines.... such as Edison Chouest Offshore use plait lines. Why, cause thoes boat companies have a higher percent of literate mariners. plus they also have a pretty good inhouse training facility. Three strand is something like the 'answering machine" It a buggy whip of lines. Time for you to get our to the stone age Wilbur. Time marches on. Bob |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:33 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com