On Apr 5, 9:46*am, Geoff Schultz wrote:
jeff wrote :

Ben Atkins wrote:
Hello Everybody,

My name is Benjamin Atkins and I represent Atkins & Hoyle Ltd. ...

snip inappropriate commercial content

Some years ago I had an extremely negative experience with them, to the
point of specifying on my new boat that I would not accept it if it had
any Atkins & Hoyle gear.

It does not surprise me that they now show a total disregard of the
non-commercial status of this group.

While I won't disagree about the matter of commercial posts to this group,
I've had 2 sets of A&H davits on my boat and find them extremely robust. *
My first set was undersized and I replaced them with heavier duty ones. *I
haven't seen any others that I'd recommend and would *install them again in
a heartbeat.

-- Geoffwww.GeoffSchultz.org

Fair enough. I was unaware of the rules regarding vendors in this
group. In some other forums, they have a place on the board for
professionals offering advice and opinions. I tried to make it clear
that anything that I post might be influenced by my position at Atkins
& Hoyle Ltd. In any case, I will walk this line more carefully in the
future.

Geoff, I took a look at your site and have to say that I hope that one
day I can have Trip Report Index like yours. Very nice setup of the
2000 davits, a perfect example of how to build a proper bridle as
well. May I use some of those pictures for my site?

--Benjamin Atkins
www.atkinshoyle.com

Ben Atkins wrote in news:6330aa86-ad60-
:

Fair enough. I was unaware of the rules regarding vendors in this
group. In some other forums, they have a place on the board for
professionals offering advice and opinions. I tried to make it clear
that anything that I post might be influenced by my position at Atkins
& Hoyle Ltd. In any case, I will walk this line more carefully in the
future.

Geoff, I took a look at your site and have to say that I hope that one
day I can have Trip Report Index like yours. Very nice setup of the
2000 davits, a perfect example of how to build a proper bridle as
well. May I use some of those pictures for my site?

--Benjamin Atkins
www.atkinshoyle.com



Ben, we've had lots of commercial interest folks as regular posters to
this newsgroup for many years. Peggie, our resident head expert, was
president of one of the major head manufacturers and has helped nearly
every boater here get the most out of their sanitary facilities, whether
her company made them or not.

What's not tolerated is advertising. This isn't a webpage your company
pays for, or a free ride. Newsgroups who buy from "spammers", those who
blatantly advertisers posting incessant advertising, soon end up with no
posters, no content, only spammers. There are hundreds of examples.
This is why it's not tolerated.

You're most welcome by all to JOIN the discussions in this group, which
range from wannabees to cruisers of all types of craft to old farts
retired out of boating or the marine business. The proper etiquette is
to put your company information (webpage, email address, phone number, a
one-liner description) as a TAGline to your text posting at the bottom.
Everyone will soon recognize your company, which can be good for sales
and customer relations, assuming your company is reputable, not one of
the marine shysters making overpriced crap...and a lot of enemies, who
will CERTAINLY post like you've already seen here. Being attacked in
various ways is "normal" for Usenet. The freedom to post anything about
anything, here, instead of some company-filtered web forum that makes
everything look like a marine magazine supported by advertisers that
never says a discouraging word, even about Bayliners, is what keeps us
watching and posting here. If it's crap....and we know it's
crap....you'll read about it here every time.

Now, you have a poster who is a ruined customer from his experience with
your company. Correcting a problem in a public forum across the planet
and renewing your relationship with this customer, exposed for the whole
world to view, is more valuable than all the advertising you buy! These
guys are all on the docks every week and know hundreds, maybe thousands,
of potential customers. The cost of saying to that poster, "send me the
broken part and we'll just send you out a new unit so we can see what's
wrong with our product" spreads like wildfire down the docks across the
planet. "Atkins and Hoyle? Oh, yeah, Ben is one of our friends on
rec.boats.cruising newsgroup. He sent xxxxxx a replacement davit that
broke when he heard about it. That company has great customer service.
Hell, the company Vice President even talks to us!" 18 potential
customers just made a mental note your advertising company could never
provide. Those 18 will remember it when someone they meet needs a
product. All the rosey magazine ads on the planet mean nothing in
comparison. All you did was do the right thing and swap out half a
davit....and chatted openly, and honestly, about it, here so everyone
would see it.....which costs you little of nothing.

You'll see about 30-40 regular posters bickering and punching at each
other, just like at any dock. But, if you look around the net with
Google, you'll see what we say here has a MUCH wider audience to the
boating community that has never been on Usenet. Years ago, I wrote
what I call the "Liveaboard Simulator", a tongue-in-cheek, at home
little exercise to simulate living aboard a sailboat with your mate by
simulating boat conditions in your bedroom. It was only posted here.
Do a Google search on:

"Liveaboard Simulator"

and see how many places my little contribution now shows up in. I just
did it, here, and it shows 294 webpages now have it. I'm very flattered
and humbled by its open distribution...(c;] Here it is on sailnet:

http://www.sailnet.com/list_server/r....php?id=191577

If someone takes an interest in what you do, here, it spreads to all
kinds of crazy places....(c; There are also something in the hundreds
to may thousands of "lurkers", people who read newsgroups, but don't
feel comfortable posting and exposing themselves to this high level of
ridicule. They read the newsgroups from Google Groups or one of the
other webpage reflectors that repeat every word any of us type to here.
I've had people recognize my ham radio callsign I use here. I'm always
shocked when they say, "I've seen your usenet postings on Google
Groups." (I'm also on guard in case what I said made them so mad they
might take a swing at me...(c;])

We welcome you to our little flamewars. Hope your skin is thick enough
to shed off the arrows and stones anyone on here is sure to attract....
(c;] That's what makes it all so much fun!

Ben Atkins wrote in
:

On Apr 5, 9:46*am, Geoff Schultz wrote:
jeff wrote :

Ben Atkins wrote:
Hello Everybody,

My name is Benjamin Atkins and I represent Atkins & Hoyle Ltd. ...

snip inappropriate commercial content

Some years ago I had an extremely negative experience with them, to
the point of specifying on my new boat that I would not accept it
if it had any Atkins & Hoyle gear.

It does not surprise me that they now show a total disregard of the
non-commercial status of this group.

While I won't disagree about the matter of commercial posts to this
group
,
I've had 2 sets of A&H davits on my boat and find them extremely
robust.
*
My first set was undersized and I replaced them with heavier duty
ones.
*I
haven't seen any others that I'd recommend and would *install them
agai
n in
a heartbeat.

-- Geoffwww.GeoffSchultz.org

Fair enough. I was unaware of the rules regarding vendors in this
group. In some other forums, they have a place on the board for
professionals offering advice and opinions. I tried to make it clear
that anything that I post might be influenced by my position at Atkins
& Hoyle Ltd. In any case, I will walk this line more carefully in the
future.

Geoff, I took a look at your site and have to say that I hope that one
day I can have Trip Report Index like yours. Very nice setup of the
2000 davits, a perfect example of how to build a proper bridle as
well. May I use some of those pictures for my site?

--Benjamin Atkins
www.atkinshoyle.com

You're more than welcome to use them, but let me take some of the more
recent changes that have been made. The photos on the site are over 2
years old and I've improved upon it.

Regarding the commercial postings: It always amazes me how there are
members of this group and others who think there are some official rules
which dictate what can be posted here. I've certainly never see any such
thing, and I used to run an ISP. There may be suggestions, but no rules.
This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and software
posted to news groups. I agree that I don't want to see these news
groups filled up with commercial posting.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Geoff Schultz wrote:
....
Regarding the commercial postings: It always amazes me how there are
members of this group and others who think there are some official rules
which dictate what can be posted here. I've certainly never see any such
thing, and I used to run an ISP. There may be suggestions, but no rules.

Of course there are rules. They where set forth when the group was created:

rec.boats.cruising Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open to
discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
- cruising equipment
- cruising reports
- destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
- discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related issues
- discussion on navigation
- requests for crews and for boats to crew on
- upcoming events, cruises, etc
- etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be open
to for-sale postings. Appropriate advertisements should be directed
to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and software
posted to news groups. I agree that I don't want to see these news
groups filled up with commercial posting.


There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.

Jeff wrote in :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
...
Regarding the commercial postings: It always amazes me how there are
members of this group and others who think there are some official
rules which dictate what can be posted here. I've certainly never
see any such thing, and I used to run an ISP. There may be
suggestions, but no rules.

Of course there are rules. They where set forth when the group was
created:

rec.boats.cruising Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open to
discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
- cruising equipment
- cruising reports
- destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
- discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related issues
- discussion on navigation
- requests for crews and for boats to crew on
- upcoming events, cruises, etc
- etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be open
to for-sale postings. Appropriate advertisements should be directed
to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and
software posted to news groups. I agree that I don't want to see
these news groups filled up with commercial posting.


There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.

When was the last time that anyone posted these "rules" to this news
group? And when was this posted and to where? It's my guess that this
was before anyone could create any group that they want and there was
going to be some form of control over groups. Clearly that went out of
the window many, many years ago. These are nice suggestions, not rules.

And there are also rules against posting using fake addresses/psuedonyms,
etc. Clearly no one follows them in here. You can't select to follow
some rules and not others.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:16:33 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Jeff wrote in :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
...
Regarding the commercial postings: It always amazes me how there are
members of this group and others who think there are some official
rules which dictate what can be posted here. I've certainly never
see any such thing, and I used to run an ISP. There may be
suggestions, but no rules.

Of course there are rules. They where set forth when the group was
created:

rec.boats.cruising Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open to
discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
- cruising equipment
- cruising reports
- destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
- discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related issues
- discussion on navigation
- requests for crews and for boats to crew on
- upcoming events, cruises, etc
- etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be open
to for-sale postings. Appropriate advertisements should be directed
to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and
software posted to news groups. I agree that I don't want to see
these news groups filled up with commercial posting.


There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.

When was the last time that anyone posted these "rules" to this news
group? And when was this posted and to where? It's my guess that this
was before anyone could create any group that they want and there was
going to be some form of control over groups. Clearly that went out of
the window many, many years ago. These are nice suggestions, not rules.

And there are also rules against posting using fake addresses/psuedonyms,
etc. Clearly no one follows them in here. You can't select to follow
some rules and not others.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

We need some moderators.
I nominate Roger Long, Wlibur Hubbard, and Larry.
And Bruce and Jon. Maybe Peter when he returns.
That's a start.
No offense to those I omitted.
A blessing, really.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:16:33 -0500, Geoff Schultz
wrote:

Jeff wrote in :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
...
Regarding the commercial postings: It always amazes me how there are
members of this group and others who think there are some official
rules which dictate what can be posted here. I've certainly never
see any such thing, and I used to run an ISP. There may be
suggestions, but no rules.

Of course there are rules. They where set forth when the group was
created:

rec.boats.cruising Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open to
discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
- cruising equipment
- cruising reports
- destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
- discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related issues
- discussion on navigation
- requests for crews and for boats to crew on
- upcoming events, cruises, etc
- etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be open
to for-sale postings. Appropriate advertisements should be directed
to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and
software posted to news groups. I agree that I don't want to see
these news groups filled up with commercial posting.


There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.

When was the last time that anyone posted these "rules" to this news
group? And when was this posted and to where? It's my guess that this
was before anyone could create any group that they want and there was
going to be some form of control over groups. Clearly that went out of
the window many, many years ago. These are nice suggestions, not rules.

And there are also rules against posting using fake addresses/psuedonyms,
etc. Clearly no one follows them in here. You can't select to follow
some rules and not others.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

We need some moderators.
I nominate Roger Long, Wlibur Hubbard, and Larry.
And Bruce and Jon. Maybe Peter when he returns.
That's a start.
No offense to those I omitted.
A blessing, really.

--Vic


I'm not a very moderate person, so I'll decline.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Geoff Schultz wrote:
Jeff wrote in :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
...
Regarding the commercial postings: It always amazes me how there are
members of this group and others who think there are some official
rules which dictate what can be posted here. I've certainly never
see any such thing, and I used to run an ISP. There may be
suggestions, but no rules.
Of course there are rules. They where set forth when the group was
created:

rec.boats.cruising Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open to
discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
- cruising equipment
- cruising reports
- destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
- discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related issues
- discussion on navigation
- requests for crews and for boats to crew on
- upcoming events, cruises, etc
- etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be open
to for-sale postings. Appropriate advertisements should be directed
to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and
software posted to news groups. I agree that I don't want to see
these news groups filled up with commercial posting.

There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.

When was the last time that anyone posted these "rules" to this news
group? And when was this posted and to where?

Its been a few years. But the issue of commercial posts is discussed
several time a year, with very few people indeed saying they think it
would be good if everyone who has a product or boat to sell posted here.

It's my guess that this
was before anyone could create any group that they want and there was
going to be some form of control over groups. Clearly that went out of
the window many, many years ago. These are nice suggestions, not rules.

No, they are the rules. Your only point is that they are unenforcible.


And there are also rules against posting using fake addresses/psuedonyms,
etc. Clearly no one follows them in here.

Is this a confession? Actually, most of the posters have used only one
handle, and many have identified themselves. The fact that several
choose not to does not mean we have all left the pale of civilized
behavior. Actually, I'm inclined to believe the story that Neil died
and Wilbur is his "legacy" because until a few years ago Neil did not
engage much in sock puppets.

You can't select to follow
some rules and not others.

Isn't that exactly what you are suggesting? That everyone should simply
pick the rules they want to follow? Or are you suggesting that we make
a point of breaking all rules? ASA is an example of that path.

jeff wrote in :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
Jeff wrote in :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
...
Regarding the commercial postings: It always amazes me how there
are members of this group and others who think there are some
official rules which dictate what can be posted here. I've
certainly never see any such thing, and I used to run an ISP.
There may be suggestions, but no rules.
Of course there are rules. They where set forth when the group was
created:

rec.boats.cruising Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open
to discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
- cruising equipment
- cruising reports
- destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants
to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
- discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related
issues - discussion on navigation
- requests for crews and for boats to crew on
- upcoming events, cruises, etc
- etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be
open to for-sale postings. Appropriate advertisements should be
directed to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and
software posted to news groups. I agree that I don't want to see
these news groups filled up with commercial posting.

There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.

When was the last time that anyone posted these "rules" to this news
group? And when was this posted and to where?

Its been a few years. But the issue of commercial posts is discussed
several time a year, with very few people indeed saying they think it
would be good if everyone who has a product or boat to sell posted
here.

It's my guess that this
was before anyone could create any group that they want and there was
going to be some form of control over groups. Clearly that went out
of the window many, many years ago. These are nice suggestions, not
rules.

No, they are the rules. Your only point is that they are
unenforcible.


And there are also rules against posting using fake
addresses/psuedonyms, etc. Clearly no one follows them in here.

Is this a confession? Actually, most of the posters have used only
one handle, and many have identified themselves. The fact that
several choose not to does not mean we have all left the pale of
civilized behavior. Actually, I'm inclined to believe the story that
Neil died and Wilbur is his "legacy" because until a few years ago
Neil did not engage much in sock puppets.

You can't select to follow
some rules and not others.

Isn't that exactly what you are suggesting? That everyone should
simply pick the rules they want to follow? Or are you suggesting that
we make a point of breaking all rules? ASA is an example of that
path.

Guess what, this is the Internet! RBC isn't far ahead of ASA. There are
no hard and fast rules. There are only suggestions. Tell me how you, or
anyone will keep commercial postings away. If you look at the count of
posters here, you'll see a steady decline over the years. News groups
are well out of the main stream and headed down hill. Within a few years
it will just be a memory which is hung onto by a few diehards.

Personally I would much rather ban Neal/Wilbur/et-al and all of his sock
puppets than the occasional commercial posting. Wilbur and his sock-
puppets have done more to discourage posting to these newsgroups than any
commercial posting. There's reasons why they don't post to forums.
They'd be shut down/banned/whatever within days. These unmoderated,
subscription-free posts are their only source of bile-based puke that
they have.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org

Geoff Schultz wrote:
jeff wrote in :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
Jeff wrote in :

Geoff Schultz wrote:
...
Regarding the commercial postings: It always amazes me how there
are members of this group and others who think there are some
official rules which dictate what can be posted here. I've
certainly never see any such thing, and I used to run an ISP.
There may be suggestions, but no rules.
Of course there are rules. They where set forth when the group was
created:

rec.boats.cruising Cruising in boats.

CHARTER

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will be open
to discussions on all topics related to cruising in boats such as:
- cruising equipment
- cruising reports
- destinations: Including where to moor/anchor, restaurants
to
visit, sights to see and where/how to provision
- discussion of long-distance passagemaking and related
issues - discussion on navigation
- requests for crews and for boats to crew on
- upcoming events, cruises, etc
- etc.

The proposed unmoderated newsgroup rec.boats.cruising will not be
open to for-sale postings. Appropriate advertisements should be
directed to rec.boats.marketplace.

It is hoped that a FAQ will be developed.

This is the Internet...

If there were rules, you wouldn't see copyrighted manuals and
software posted to news groups. I agree that I don't want to see
these news groups filled up with commercial posting.

There are some that feel that if a rule isn't enforced, it doesn't
really exist. I'm sure the Berny Madoff felt that way.
When was the last time that anyone posted these "rules" to this news
group? And when was this posted and to where?
Its been a few years. But the issue of commercial posts is discussed
several time a year, with very few people indeed saying they think it
would be good if everyone who has a product or boat to sell posted
here.

It's my guess that this
was before anyone could create any group that they want and there was
going to be some form of control over groups. Clearly that went out
of the window many, many years ago. These are nice suggestions, not
rules.
No, they are the rules. Your only point is that they are
unenforcible.

And there are also rules against posting using fake
addresses/psuedonyms, etc. Clearly no one follows them in here.
Is this a confession? Actually, most of the posters have used only
one handle, and many have identified themselves. The fact that
several choose not to does not mean we have all left the pale of
civilized behavior. Actually, I'm inclined to believe the story that
Neil died and Wilbur is his "legacy" because until a few years ago
Neil did not engage much in sock puppets.

You can't select to follow
some rules and not others.
Isn't that exactly what you are suggesting? That everyone should
simply pick the rules they want to follow? Or are you suggesting that
we make a point of breaking all rules? ASA is an example of that
path.

Guess what, this is the Internet! RBC isn't far ahead of ASA. There are
no hard and fast rules. There are only suggestions. Tell me how you, or
anyone will keep commercial postings away.

That's easy; the same way we have in the past. Most commercial vendors
like Mr. Atkins have no desire to spam a group that feels it's anti-social.

If you look at the count of
posters here, you'll see a steady decline over the years. News groups
are well out of the main stream and headed down hill. Within a few years
it will just be a memory which is hung onto by a few diehards.

Well, that's a different problem, not an excuse to trash it right now.


Personally I would much rather ban Neal/Wilbur/et-al and all of his sock
puppets than the occasional commercial posting. Wilbur and his sock-
puppets have done more to discourage posting to these newsgroups than any
commercial posting.

Again, a different problem.

There's reasons why they don't post to forums.
They'd be shut down/banned/whatever within days. These unmoderated,
subscription-free posts are their only source of bile-based puke that
they have.

-- Geoff
www.GeoffSchultz.org