There are any number of good to excellent Taiwan sailboats in the
45-55' size. I've owned my current 52' boat for 17 years (US built)
but I almost bought a new CT-49 or Tayana 52 directly from the
builders in Taiwan instead of buying a used boat.

The short answer is - no I have nothing against heavy boats. Mine is
fairly heavy at 42K pounds but on a 46' waterline.

The problem with the Vagabond 47 & cousins etc and some poorly built
Cheoy Lee's as well is that they were - guess - poorly built - as in
wired, plumbed, chainplated, sparred, rigged, tanks, decks - that's
what poorly built means - not just lots of wood and satin varnish. How
do I know - 9 years of cruising and 18 years of talking to cruisers.

These boats are best left as liveaboards in marinas and taken no
further than VHF to USCG range offshore.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:14:58 GMT, Dan Best wrote:

Could you be a little more specific? I don't know anything about the
Formosa 51, but have been aboard a couple of Vagabonds (though I like
the Vagabond 42 better than the 47) and felt that they were fairly well
made.

Is your disgust with them a dislike of all heavy displacement cruising
sailboats or is it something specific to these particular boats?

Thanks - Dan

Ace-high wrote:
They're all total crap - the worst of the worst Taiwan leaky teaky's -
buy something better. For Taiwan cheap boats - maybe a CT49 - not the
crappy CT41's. You obviously haven't looked enough and learned enough.
What do you own now and what have you owned before?

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX. Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work than
the buyer is willing to take on.

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net


"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
There are any number of good to excellent Taiwan sailboats in the
45-55' size. I've owned my current 52' boat for 17 years (US built)
but I almost bought a new CT-49 or Tayana 52 directly from the
builders in Taiwan instead of buying a used boat.

The short answer is - no I have nothing against heavy boats. Mine is
fairly heavy at 42K pounds but on a 46' waterline.

The problem with the Vagabond 47 & cousins etc and some poorly built
Cheoy Lee's as well is that they were - guess - poorly built - as in
wired, plumbed, chainplated, sparred, rigged, tanks, decks - that's
what poorly built means - not just lots of wood and satin varnish. How
do I know - 9 years of cruising and 18 years of talking to cruisers.

These boats are best left as liveaboards in marinas and taken no
further than VHF to USCG range offshore.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:14:58 GMT, Dan Best wrote:

Could you be a little more specific? I don't know anything about the
Formosa 51, but have been aboard a couple of Vagabonds (though I like
the Vagabond 42 better than the 47) and felt that they were fairly well
made.

Is your disgust with them a dislike of all heavy displacement cruising
sailboats or is it something specific to these particular boats?

Thanks - Dan

Ace-high wrote:
They're all total crap - the worst of the worst Taiwan leaky teaky's -
buy something better. For Taiwan cheap boats - maybe a CT49 - not the
crappy CT41's. You obviously haven't looked enough and learned enough.
What do you own now and what have you owned before?

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.

MMMMpppphh....wow, wish I'd been wearing my foulies when I read that!

R.

Did I catch you drinking coffee? lol

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net


"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.

MMMMpppphh....wow, wish I'd been wearing my foulies when I read that!

R.

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:40:34 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

Did I catch you drinking coffee? lol

You most certainly did, and I must say the citation of JAX to allude
to blustery, underinformed, dogmatic and just plain wrong commentary
is becoming common beyond this newsgroup.

Hey, as a simile, JAX could be the next "Santorum"! G

R.

That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX. Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work than
the buyer is willing to take on.

JAX Wannabe

Yeah, you're absolutely right -- "standing rigging" consists solely of
turnbuckles, which are never replaced with the rest of the standing rigging,
and every CT-41 ever built sank the day it was launched. The only vessel
worthy of ocean voyaging is a Macgregor 26, like the one you "cruise" in.

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net


"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.

Ace-High:

Your language is atrocious.
You advice is impolite, inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your attitude is unforgivable in a news group.
Please rethink your next response before addressing posters.

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.
Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each
and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other
plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many
of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the
years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on
virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of
running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which
is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to
those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall
seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that
the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that
such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a
thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work
than
the buyer is willing to take on.

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your uncalled for remarks.

My language is nornal - I didn't say **** at all - real cruisers say
that ocasionally. And they drink rum and eat fish
..
My advice is accurate and concise - you might not like it but most/all
of these boats are crappy - and generally a waste of cruisers money.

My attitude - well I've been there and done that - and I don't have to
call myself Salty as a front.

My next response will be more of the cruising truth.

PS - Don't buy a crappy boat and spend years and wasted dollars making
int into an expensive crappy boat. DO - buy a reasonable boat and go
cruising now - before you die choking on all this NG BS from wannabe
know-it-all but never-been cruisers.



On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:45 -0700, "Salty Bob"
wrote:

Ace-High:

Your language is atrocious.
You advice is impolite, inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your attitude is unforgivable in a news group.
Please rethink your next response before addressing posters.

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
.. .
That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.
Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each
and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other
plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many
of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the
years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on
virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of
running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which
is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to
those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall
seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that
the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that
such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a
thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work
than
the buyer is willing to take on.

Yawn...

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
Dear Bob,

Thanks for your uncalled for remarks.

My language is nornal - I didn't say **** at all - real cruisers say
that ocasionally. And they drink rum and eat fish
.
My advice is accurate and concise - you might not like it but most/all
of these boats are crappy - and generally a waste of cruisers money.

My attitude - well I've been there and done that - and I don't have to
call myself Salty as a front.

My next response will be more of the cruising truth.

PS - Don't buy a crappy boat and spend years and wasted dollars making
int into an expensive crappy boat. DO - buy a reasonable boat and go
cruising now - before you die choking on all this NG BS from wannabe
know-it-all but never-been cruisers.



On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:59:45 -0700, "Salty Bob"
wrote:

Ace-High:

Your language is atrocious.
You advice is impolite, inaccurate and unwarranted.
Your attitude is unforgivable in a news group.
Please rethink your next response before addressing posters.

Bob

"Ace-high" wrote in message
.. .
That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.
Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging
each
and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other
plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good
many
of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the
years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on
virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of
running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would
have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming
the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly
or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat
which
is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to
those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be
priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall
seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that
the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand
that
such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a
thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work
than
the buyer is willing to take on.