I am contemplating purchasing a Formosa 51 (aka Hudson Force 50) or a
Vagabond 47. I will use it for coastal cruising with my family of six for a
couple of years and then a year of offshore sailing when the younger
children are a little older. I am trying to collect information on the
reliability of these boats and known maintenance/structural issues. If
anyone has any suggestions or comments - especially based on first hand
experiences, I would appreciate a note. Thanks!

If you wish to reply by email, please remove the number "1" from my email
address. It is only there to prevent spam.

They're all total crap - the worst of the worst Taiwan leaky teaky's -
buy something better. For Taiwan cheap boats - maybe a CT49 - not the
crappy CT41's. You obviously haven't looked enough and learned enough.
What do you own now and what have you owned before?




On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:38:08 -0400, "Scott"
wrote:

I am contemplating purchasing a Formosa 51 (aka Hudson Force 50) or a
Vagabond 47. I will use it for coastal cruising with my family of six for a
couple of years and then a year of offshore sailing when the younger
children are a little older. I am trying to collect information on the
reliability of these boats and known maintenance/structural issues. If
anyone has any suggestions or comments - especially based on first hand
experiences, I would appreciate a note. Thanks!

If you wish to reply by email, please remove the number "1" from my email
address. It is only there to prevent spam.

Have you owned any of the boats I've considered or the CT49? If so, which
and for how long? What types of problems frustrated you?

"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
They're all total crap - the worst of the worst Taiwan leaky teaky's -
buy something better. For Taiwan cheap boats - maybe a CT49 - not the
crappy CT41's. You obviously haven't looked enough and learned enough.
What do you own now and what have you owned before?




On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:38:08 -0400, "Scott"
wrote:

I am contemplating purchasing a Formosa 51 (aka Hudson Force 50) or a
Vagabond 47. I will use it for coastal cruising with my family of six for
a
couple of years and then a year of offshore sailing when the younger
children are a little older. I am trying to collect information on the
reliability of these boats and known maintenance/structural issues. If
anyone has any suggestions or comments - especially based on first hand
experiences, I would appreciate a note. Thanks!

If you wish to reply by email, please remove the number "1" from my email
address. It is only there to prevent spam.

Scott wrote:

Have you owned any of the boats I've considered or the CT49? If so, which
and for how long? What types of problems frustrated you?

IMO you should change your sources of information to: People who have
information with good explanations, reasoning and experience to back
them up.

There are plenty of people with good information about those boats who
have never owned one and plenty of former owners with innacurate
information.

Stephen


"Ace-high" wrote in message
...

They're all total crap - the worst of the worst Taiwan leaky teaky's -
buy something better. For Taiwan cheap boats - maybe a CT49 - not the
crappy CT41's. You obviously haven't looked enough and learned enough.
What do you own now and what have you owned before?




On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:38:08 -0400, "Scott"
wrote:


I am contemplating purchasing a Formosa 51 (aka Hudson Force 50) or a
Vagabond 47. I will use it for coastal cruising with my family of six for

a

couple of years and then a year of offshore sailing when the younger
children are a little older. I am trying to collect information on the
reliability of these boats and known maintenance/structural issues. If
anyone has any suggestions or comments - especially based on first hand
experiences, I would appreciate a note. Thanks!

If you wish to reply by email, please remove the number "1" from my email
address. It is only there to prevent spam.

Could you be a little more specific? I don't know anything about the
Formosa 51, but have been aboard a couple of Vagabonds (though I like
the Vagabond 42 better than the 47) and felt that they were fairly well
made.

Is your disgust with them a dislike of all heavy displacement cruising
sailboats or is it something specific to these particular boats?

Thanks - Dan

Ace-high wrote:
They're all total crap - the worst of the worst Taiwan leaky teaky's -
buy something better. For Taiwan cheap boats - maybe a CT49 - not the
crappy CT41's. You obviously haven't looked enough and learned enough.
What do you own now and what have you owned before?

--
Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448
B-2/75 1977-1979
Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean"
http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG

There are any number of good to excellent Taiwan sailboats in the
45-55' size. I've owned my current 52' boat for 17 years (US built)
but I almost bought a new CT-49 or Tayana 52 directly from the
builders in Taiwan instead of buying a used boat.

The short answer is - no I have nothing against heavy boats. Mine is
fairly heavy at 42K pounds but on a 46' waterline.

The problem with the Vagabond 47 & cousins etc and some poorly built
Cheoy Lee's as well is that they were - guess - poorly built - as in
wired, plumbed, chainplated, sparred, rigged, tanks, decks - that's
what poorly built means - not just lots of wood and satin varnish. How
do I know - 9 years of cruising and 18 years of talking to cruisers.

These boats are best left as liveaboards in marinas and taken no
further than VHF to USCG range offshore.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:14:58 GMT, Dan Best wrote:

Could you be a little more specific? I don't know anything about the
Formosa 51, but have been aboard a couple of Vagabonds (though I like
the Vagabond 42 better than the 47) and felt that they were fairly well
made.

Is your disgust with them a dislike of all heavy displacement cruising
sailboats or is it something specific to these particular boats?

Thanks - Dan

Ace-high wrote:
They're all total crap - the worst of the worst Taiwan leaky teaky's -
buy something better. For Taiwan cheap boats - maybe a CT49 - not the
crappy CT41's. You obviously haven't looked enough and learned enough.
What do you own now and what have you owned before?

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX. Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work than
the buyer is willing to take on.

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net


"Ace-high" wrote in message
...
There are any number of good to excellent Taiwan sailboats in the
45-55' size. I've owned my current 52' boat for 17 years (US built)
but I almost bought a new CT-49 or Tayana 52 directly from the
builders in Taiwan instead of buying a used boat.

The short answer is - no I have nothing against heavy boats. Mine is
fairly heavy at 42K pounds but on a 46' waterline.

The problem with the Vagabond 47 & cousins etc and some poorly built
Cheoy Lee's as well is that they were - guess - poorly built - as in
wired, plumbed, chainplated, sparred, rigged, tanks, decks - that's
what poorly built means - not just lots of wood and satin varnish. How
do I know - 9 years of cruising and 18 years of talking to cruisers.

These boats are best left as liveaboards in marinas and taken no
further than VHF to USCG range offshore.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:14:58 GMT, Dan Best wrote:

Could you be a little more specific? I don't know anything about the
Formosa 51, but have been aboard a couple of Vagabonds (though I like
the Vagabond 42 better than the 47) and felt that they were fairly well
made.

Is your disgust with them a dislike of all heavy displacement cruising
sailboats or is it something specific to these particular boats?

Thanks - Dan

Ace-high wrote:
They're all total crap - the worst of the worst Taiwan leaky teaky's -
buy something better. For Taiwan cheap boats - maybe a CT49 - not the
crappy CT41's. You obviously haven't looked enough and learned enough.
What do you own now and what have you owned before?

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX.

MMMMpppphh....wow, wish I'd been wearing my foulies when I read that!

R.

That's only if you can find a surveyor who knows his ass from a hole
in the ground - both in general and in particular about these crappy
boats - and then pay $600 to find out it's an over-priced piece of
**** that needs $55K worth of attention. What a deal.

Look somewhere else 1st and steer clear of the teaky-turds.

PS - by standing rigging I mean turnbuckles - stupid cheap buyers of
these bad boads never replace the original bad turnbuckles - and
chainplates fail when they fail - this is a waste of keystrokes -
you're obviously not a real cruiser. Read you own statements and see
if you want to buy all these potential or real problems.



On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:38:25 -0500, "Karin Conover-Lewis"
wrote:

As a former owner of a CT-41, I can only say that this is the most
ridiculous statement I've read here, not directly attributable to JAX. Yes,
some CT/Formosas were finished poorly. At worst, this means judging each and
every boat individually. Dryrot problems in the deckhouse and other plywood
structures (including the deck) are not at all uncommon, but a good many of
them have been properly repaired (or even entirely rebuilt) over the years,
and can be in very good condition indeed. The standing rigging on virtually
all of them would have been replaced over the years (replacement of running
rigging is a given) , and chainplates that were going to fail would have
demonstrated this problem long ago and been replaced. Even assuming the
chainplates need complete replacement, it is not a particularly costly or
difficult task. As for electrical and plumbing systems, *any* boat which is
30-40 years old is a good candidate for improvements and upgrades to those
systems if it hasn't already been done. Those boats should also be priced
accordingly. But this has no bearing whatsoever on the overall seaworthiness
or seakindliness of the CT/Formosa class of boats. The hulls are
excellent -- *particularly* for blue-water cruising. I will grant that the
tanks may well need replacement -- MAY. I would not state off-hand that such
a statement can be applied to ALL of these boats.

In short, any of the Taiwan boats MAY be perfectly serviceable -- a thorough
and proper marine survey should weed-out those which require more work than
the buyer is willing to take on.

I am sorry for doing this, but I will post my real name and boat name to
show I am not hiding from my statement. Web Barton, Formosa 36 Ghost,
currently docked Alameda. I live in coast north of Santa Cruz
Ace High is an Idiot. Capital I. My background: Commercial Fisherman for
many years, including winter Bering Sea crab fishery, West Coast Dungeness
fishery, West Coast Urchin Fishery,Pacific Tuna fishery (midway and pago
back to west coast) blah blah blah. Dive boat/ surf charter operator
Australia/Indian Ocean. Surfer, over 25 years. Certified diver since 1978
(I am 40) 100 ton master (big deal) Former GM Marathon Boat Yard, Florida
(100 ton lift)The point is, I have been around the water. Alot. And I have
been in bad weather. What about you, Ace? Lets hear it. Wow, nine whole
years cruising? I have hauled and repaired HUNDREDS of boats. I bought my
36 Formosa at 24 years old.(sixteen years ago) It was all I could afford.
I have since cruised Canada to panama canal, crossed caribbean to florida,
and hawaiion that little boat. Big deal ,lots of folks have done WAY more.
But here is my point, my little Formosa did just fine. And i think I was
out of VHF range. Yes, they have some problems. But they are all fixable.
All boats have problems. And all boats have positives. You get what you
can afford, aquire as much knowledge as you can, and enjoy your time on
the water for what it is: a blessing. I have cruised down to Costa Rica
side by side with a McGregor 26. I have seen bulkheads pop on US boats.
You just do the best you can with what you have got. I have gone to many
places that crews on bigger more pedigree boats were freaked out for
whatever reason and I was just fine. I am sorry for the rant, this guy
just ****es me off for making such a blanket statement, I would really
like to see what kind of a WATERMAN he really is (if he even knows what
that means)
So... to be positive.. If the guy who asked the first question is still
reading this thread and wants some good info, I know these boats really
well. I am actually flying China in a few months to look at a new 56.
(yes, I am considering another Formosa)I know the history of the Yard,
etc. I'll look to see if he is still reading...