40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

In article ,
(LaBomba182) wrote:

The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And
as an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil
in a high revving street/race car.

Like what? Frequently race cars *do* use heavy weight engine oils
because of the high temperatures involved. You use the lightest you can
get away with because you want to reduce parasitic power loss, but
that's not for engine durability - keeping the engine in one piece is
why you have to use heavier oil in the first place. As for "work harder
over time", I don't know what the "over time" part is about, but yes,
there is higher parasitic power loss with greater viscosity. But again,
this isn't a race engine where you're concerned with peak power output
anyway. Where you'd see it show up, if noticeable at all, is gal/hr.

In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

Something you *do* want to stay away from are the wide-range
multi-viscosity ratings. They are obtained with the use of modifiers
that a) break down the most quickly of any of the oil components, and b)
displace the oil itself in the lubrication mix.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?

I'm reluctant to guess without knowing the manufacturer's reasons for
specing a particular viscosity. *Generally*, unless you're doing
something silly like running 135wt gear oil in something that calls for
30wt, or oil used in hydraulic systems, the tradeoff is simply parasitic
loss vs adequate viscosity at high temp. Most damage is caused by oil
that is a) chemically incorrect for the application (GL-4 vs GL-5,
antagonistic modifier packages, etc.), b) underfilled, overfilled, or
never changed, c) inadequate viscosity at high temps.

KeS

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From:

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?


Yes it can.

OK, how ? In what ways?

Race cars do not even remotely apply to this question. Race car
engines and transmissions only need to last for the duration of one race.

Correct. That's one reason I wasn't to taken with their using that as an
example to boost their argument.

You
are more interested in longevity.

Again can you be specific as to how 40W could shorten the longevity of a diesel
compaired to using 30W?

You started out looking for a way to do
something more conveniently. Just accept that this is one convenience that
you
will have to do without.

Looks that way.

Put the correct oil specified by the manufacturer in
each machine, and look for something else where you can cut a corner without
causing future problems.

Interestingly enough, 15-40W is spec correct for both the mains and genset.


Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From: Kevin Stevens

(LaBomba182) wrote:

The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier
weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time.
And
as an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight
oil
in a high revving street/race car.

Like what? Frequently race cars *do* use heavy weight engine oils
because of the high temperatures involved. You use the lightest you can
get away with because you want to reduce parasitic power loss, but
that's not for engine durability - keeping the engine in one piece is
why you have to use heavier oil in the first place. As for "work harder
over time", I don't know what the "over time" part is about, but yes,
there is higher parasitic power loss with greater viscosity. But again,
this isn't a race engine where you're concerned with peak power output
anyway. Where you'd see it show up, if noticeable at all, is gal/hr.

The Northern Lights Tech I spoke with about this on the phone said he could see
no real down side except for perhaps an increase in oil consuption. But due to
the fact that 40W is not mentioned in the specs manual it could be a warrenty
issue.



In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines
and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

Something you *do* want to stay away from are the wide-range
multi-viscosity ratings. They are obtained with the use of modifiers
that a) break down the most quickly of any of the oil components, and b)
displace the oil itself in the lubrication
mix.

I'm not a big fan of multi wieghts either. But they are speced for the mains
and gensets.


But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?

I'm reluctant to guess without knowing the manufacturer's reasons for
specing a particular viscosity.

In the manuals the oil recommendations are based on ambient air temps.

*Generally*, unless you're doing
something silly like running 135wt gear oil in something that calls for
30wt, or oil used in hydraulic systems, the tradeoff is simply parasitic
loss vs adequate viscosity at high temp. Most damage is caused by oil
that is a) chemically incorrect for the application (GL-4 vs GL-5,
antagonistic modifier packages, etc.), b) underfilled, overfilled, or
never changed, c) inadequate viscosity at high temps.

That's the way I have always understood it.

Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

In article ,
(LaBomba182) wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have
to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets
of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher
temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be
seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And
as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil
in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill


If you call Alaska Diesel, and check with the Service Manager on spec's
for the Northern Lights Gensets, they will tell you that Delo 400 15W40
is also spec'd for those engines. CAT will also spec Delo 400 15W40
for most of their engines produced in the last 15 years. We use it
"Exclusivly" in out CAT Powerhouse that routinely runs 2.2 Megawatts
during the summers, and I switched to Delo 400 15W40, for my twin 20Kw
Northern Lights Gensets, on advice from the Factory Rep that came thru
here a few years back.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From: Bruce in Alaska

(LaBomba182) wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the
new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how
to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have

to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets

of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run
30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher
temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be
seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I
wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier
weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time.
And
as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil

in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a
high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines
and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill


If you call Alaska Diesel, and check with the Service Manager on spec's
for the Northern Lights Gensets, they will tell you that Delo 400 15W40
is also spec'd for those engines. CAT will also spec Delo 400 15W40
for most of their engines produced in the last 15 years. We use it
"Exclusivly" in out CAT Powerhouse that routinely runs 2.2 Megawatts
during the summers, and I switched to Delo 400 15W40, for my twin 20Kw
Northern Lights Gensets, on advice from the Factory Rep that came thru
here a few years back.

Thanks, I saw that in the eng. and genset manuals and that's what we will end
up doing. Filling the clean oil tank with 15-40W and keeping 40W in bottles
and/or pails for the trannys.

Based on this I still can't see how straight 40W would hurt the gensets in any
way.
As long as the ambient temps stay high.

Hell, multi weight oils start out at their low number and get more viscous as
their temp rises.



Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Here's the scoop. Mineral oil is a shape changer with temperature.
Thick as a lollypop, thin as water, depending on temperature.

If you were all fired up to reduce your stock hold, you could consider
synthetic. This has incomparably more temperature stability of
viscosity. But besides the expense, it's found to carry the
contamination less well, AND because it DOESN'T go thick as molasses
when cold, the surface run-off is greater.( Of course the initial
oil-passage fill-up and flow is much better too...)

So a synthetic and compatible mineral oil mix 3:1 would fill your
needs for a superior compatible product. Still not cheap though.

Brian W


On 12 Jun 2004 20:05:13 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

la bomba, you have smashed what little reputation you had left with your
question. Yet, you seem genuinely interested in the answer.

Two problems exist with using a heavier than spec'd oil. first, and the
biggest problem, is pushing that cold, thick oil around upon engine startup.
It can take many seconds for pressure oil to get to the all the bearings
needing pressure oil. The thicker the oil, the more seconds it takes.
Multi-weight oil was in fact expressly developed to reduce dry engine
startup's, particularly in colder weather. Original multi-weigh oils were no
over the long term as viscous as the oil they replaced, but the dry start
problem was cured. Today, most engine manufacturers recommended multi oils.
If you use a straight weight oil ***be sure*** to properly prelube the engine
before startup. Even with milti oils this ai good idea, with straight weights
it is really important.

Second, straight weight oils that are tood supposedly can push out seals. So I
have heard for decades but I never saw an engine that seemed to have lost its
seals due to anything but long use. Maybe it happens, dunno.

Kinda third, heavier oils take more hp from the engine to keep itself running.


OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have
to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets
of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher
temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be
seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And
as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil
in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Frequently race cars *do* use heavy weight engine oils

no they don't.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Interestingly enough, 15-40W is spec correct for both the mains and genset.

15-40W lubes a cold engine sooner upon cold engine start up than 30W or 40W oil
does.

You can hear the difference.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Oil too thick = may not lubricate completely between surfaces that are closer
together, where the lighter oil is designed to flow.

this is not true in an engine. the difference is important during cold engine
startup.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Hell, multi weight oils start out at their low number and get more viscous as
their temp rises.

no they don't. 15W-40 is the same viscosity ("thickness" if you will) at "room
temp" as straight 15W oil is, and the same viscousity as 40W at engine
operating temperature. 15W-40 is much more viscous at room temp than it is at
engine operating temp. If you doubt that pull the dipstick on a warm engine
and see.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

multi weight oils start out at their low number and get more viscous as
their temp rises.

Larry Berlin has been making that statement, but Larry seems not to have pulled
a dipstick on a warm engine in so long he can't remember. Or perhaps he is on
weight/blood pressure control medications and can't remember.

It is not true.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

and just what fricken surfaces in a diesel engine are "closer together" enough
so that 30W oil will flow and lube but 40W won't??????

If that were the case, those "closer together" surfaces would not get lubed at
all until the engine warmed up enough so that the cold 30W would flow.

Even the hydralic valve lifters on a gasoline engine (with some very tight
tolerances, down to a few thousands of an inch) would not operate (what a hell
of a racket you would hear) on 40W or not-yet-warmed-up-to-operating-temp 30W.

Oil too thick = may not lubricate completely between surfaces that are
closer
together, where the lighter oil is designed to flow.

this is not true in an engine. the difference is important during cold
engine
startup.

Are you daft? (retorical question)

BB

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From:

(LaBomba182) wrote:

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From:

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get
low
really cause any long term problems?


Yes it can.

OK, how ? In what ways?


The short version:

Oil too thick = may not lubricate completely between surfaces that are closer
together, where the lighter oil is designed to flow.

Oil too thin = surfaces may make contact by forcing out lubricant.

In this case I'm still not buying it. (at least not without much better
documentation)
40W is not that much "thicker" than 30W. And this is not a high revving engine
where oil film shearing would be a problem.

And to thin an oil is not an issue here.
Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From:

Interestingly enough, 15-40W is spec correct for both the mains and genset.

15-40W lubes a cold engine sooner upon cold engine start up than 30W or 40W
oil
does.

You can hear the difference.

While that maybe true, in this case we will not be seeing low ambient temps.
And if we were to, we would change the weight of the oil.

Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From:

la bomba, you have smashed what little reputation you had left with your
question. Yet, you seem genuinely interested in the answer.

Yeah, right.

Unlike you I don't mind showing I don't know everything about everything.


Two problems exist with using a heavier than spec'd oil. first, and the
biggest problem, is pushing that cold, thick oil around upon engine startup.
It can take many seconds for pressure oil to get to the all the bearings
needing pressure oil. The thicker the oil, the more seconds it takes.

As I have said repetedly, we should not be seeing any low air temps. or engine
room temps.


Multi-weight oil was in fact expressly developed to reduce dry engine
startup's, particularly in colder weather. Original multi-weigh oils were no
over the long term as viscous as the oil they replaced, but the dry start
problem was cured. Today, most engine manufacturers recommended multi oils.
If you use a straight weight oil ***be sure*** to properly prelube the engine
before startup. Even with milti oils this ai good idea, with straight
weights
it is really important.

Many seem to disagree on the pelube issue. But I agree it can't hurt.


Second, straight weight oils that are tood supposedly can push out seals. So
I
have heard for decades but I never saw an engine that seemed to have lost its
seals due to anything but long use. Maybe it happens, dunno.

Never seen it.

Kinda third, heavier oils take more hp from the engine to keep itself
running.

Doubt that's much of an issue in this case.

Capt. Bill

PS, thanks for the reply. But next time could you write it before you start
drinking.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From: Brian Whatcott

If you were all fired up to reduce your stock hold, you could consider
synthetic. This has incomparably more temperature stability of
viscosity. But besides the expense, it's found to carry the
contamination less well, AND because it DOESN'T go thick as molasses
when cold, the surface run-off is greater.( Of course the initial
oil-passage fill-up and flow is much better too...)

So a synthetic and compatible mineral oil mix 3:1 would fill your
needs for a superior compatible product. Still not cheap though.

Thought of synthetics. But there are warrenty issue with them.

Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From:

Hell, multi weight oils start out at their low number and get more viscous
as
their temp rises.

no they don't. 15W-40 is the same viscosity ("thickness" if you will) at
"room
temp" as straight 15W oil is, and the same viscousity as 40W at engine
operating temperature. 15W-40 is much more viscous at room temp than it is
at
engine operating temp. If you doubt that pull the dipstick on a warm engine
and see.

Perhaps I misstated. Multi weights oils, as I understand, when they get hot
only thin out to the point that their high weight number would at the same
temp.
Something about polymers uncoiling into long chains.

In other words think of a 15-40W oil as a 15W oil that will not thin more than
a 40W would when hot.

Like I said, that's my understanding. But, I could be wrong. That's why I asked
the question. :-)

Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

15-40W lubes a cold engine sooner upon cold engine start up than 30W or 40W
oil
does.

You can hear the difference.

While that maybe true, in this case we will not be seeing low ambient temps.
And if we were to, we would change the weight of the oil.

"cold" is maybe 80* for engine startup while oil operating temps can be well
over 200*. 15W-40 lubes much quicker at 80* than does 40W.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

As I have said repetedly, we should not be seeing any low air temps. or
engine
room temps.

"low" temps for engine startup is anything you might normally find for a temp
at engine startup, while operating temps are much higher. pull the dipstick on
your engine before startup and compare the difference to the same dipstick/same
oil after the engine has been run long enough to reach operating temp.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Many seem to disagree on the pelube issue. But I agree it can't hurt.

only "hammer mechanics" disagree on prelube. race engines are always prelubed.

wanna hear the difference? start your unrun overnight engine with the engine
compartment open and listen to the sounds you hear. let the engine warm up,
shut it down and restart, listening again. One hell of a difference in sounds.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Doubt that's much of an issue in this case.

Capt. Bill

oh ye of little faith. I drove NYC to Oriental to NYC Friday evening to this
morning. Have had nothing stronger than Coca-Cola since Thursday.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Thought of synthetics. But there are warrenty issue with them.

not if they might the standards (most all do, except some special racing
synthetics).

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Perhaps I misstated. Multi weights oils, as I understand, when they get hot
only thin out to the point that their high weight number would at the same
temp.
Something about polymers uncoiling into long chains.

In other words think of a 15-40W oil as a 15W oil that will not thin more
than
a 40W would when hot.

Like I said, that's my understanding. But, I could be wrong. That's why I
asked
the question. :-)

Capt. Bill

That is correct.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:00:28 GMT, wrote:

On 13 Jun 2004 16:07:19 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

Oil too thick = may not lubricate completely between surfaces that are closer
together, where the lighter oil is designed to flow.

this is not true in an engine. the difference is important during cold engine
startup.

Are you daft? (retorical question)

He might be, but he might be referring to what was called 'summer oil'
and 'winter oil' by some. It's not that we changed engines; loose
tolerances for the thicker oil of summer, and close tolerances for the
bone-numbing cold of a North Dakotan winter to keep the lubrication in
the crankcase. For those of us who didn't have block heaters, in the
winter, we used 10 weight so we could at least *try* and start the
car.

In winter, if you left 30 weight in the car before you changed the
oil, it wouldn't come out of the can.

This is why you bring the oil into the house the night before.

....then along came multi viscosity oil....10-30, and even 10-40....and
then we thought we were living the easy life.

Yeah, so Jax may, or may not be daft...but there is a an important
difference during cold engine startup.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

here is a an important
difference during cold engine startup.

"cold" is 80* outside, in terms of seconds, and seconds, and seconds and still
more seconds waiting pressure oil flow to all the bearings that need pressure
oil, as far as engine startup is concerned. you can hear the difference in an
engine, if you listen.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

btw, transmission oil temps usually are not as high as engine oil temps. In
this case, 40W oil is more viscous than 10W-40. In addition, there is a belief
(not as much as in the past, but still a belief) that 10W-40 does not _stay_
40W at operating temps as the engine hours on the oil increases and gets closer
and closer to oil change time. Transmission do not suffer from dry bearings at
engine startup (as the engine does) because the gears are bathed in oil.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

For the transmission application I'd opt to use the EXACT grade, as the
viscosity in this case relates to the "film strength" needed to keep
metal-to-metal contact to an absolutel minimum. If you used other than
whats specified you are vulnerable to scoring, galling and .....
ability to reduce wear of the gear tooth surfaces. A transmission or
gear set is considered an "extreme pressure" (lubrication-wise)
application and the oil viscosity (as specified) is VERY important to
keep metal to metal contact from ocurring... in this case the oil
supports the load between the gears and prevents metal to metal contact
..... only if its the specified viscosity. . In a transmission the
reduction in wear is a function of the exact lubricity specified. If
the trans. mfg. specifies 40W (Not 10-40W), then USE 40W .... only.

For the engine applications, the viscosity enables the bearings
(journal - crankshaft) to be lifted to the proper height within their
journals, so that the oil supports the shaft precisely at dead center
in the journal so that the shafting is in the exact cente r.... and has
equal and equidistant clearance (at the higher range of engine load) by
the pressure generated in the gallery/pump and somewhat by the
viscosity. Why viscosity is important is that viscosity (resistance to
flow) will help to support the piston load during the combustion
stroke. ........ However, If you are not 'lugging' the engine (low
rpm at HIGH load) then using a viscosity index of 1 grade lower than
specified ..... should NOT be a problem. If however youre running WOT
(wide-open-throttle) and high load ... then it becomes important to
match the specified viscosity grade (and operate at the specified
engine temp. ... as set by the thermostat.).
The short answer: OK to run lower viscosity, just watch the oil
pressure to be sure its 'similar' as when running the 'specified'
viscosity index oil.

In article , LaBomba182
wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher
temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be
seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And
as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

In article ,
(JAXAshby) wrote:

snipped because I have another point to make


One other thing to remember in diesel engine operation, is
that the Base oil in a diesel engine is also designed as
part of the engines cooling system. Most larger (bigger
than 100Hp) engines have oil heat exchangers that run at the
temps of the cooling system. Oil Temps usually are 35 to
50 Degrees F higher than the cooling system temps found in
an engine. Today's Multiviscosity Oils are formulated to
allow for heat transfer from the friction parts out thru
the cooling system. Higher than normal oil Temps can
surely be a cause of concern, for premature engine failure
and something to be watchful for.


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Rich, viscosity of the oils in question is a function of their temps. The
definition of 40W is 40W -- at the given operating temperture. That is to say,
that given the definition of the standards for oil, 10W-40 has the same lube
properties -- at engine cranckcase operating temp -- as 40W. This is "close
enough" to be true that it is accepted by the industry as a standard.

That said, transmission oil typically operates at a lower temp than engine oil.
That means that under normal operating conditions 40W **as used in a
transmission** is more viscous than 10W-40.

I would be inclined to use 40W in a tranny unless no 40W is available when the
tranny needs oil, but 10W-40 is.

For the transmission application I'd opt to use the EXACT grade, as the
viscosity in this case relates to the "film strength" needed to keep
metal-to-metal contact to an absolutel minimum. If you used other than
whats specified you are vulnerable to scoring, galling and .....
ability to reduce wear of the gear tooth surfaces. A transmission or
gear set is considered an "extreme pressure" (lubrication-wise)
application and the oil viscosity (as specified) is VERY important to
keep metal to metal contact from ocurring... in this case the oil
supports the load between the gears and prevents metal to metal contact
.... only if its the specified viscosity. . In a transmission the
reduction in wear is a function of the exact lubricity specified. If
the trans. mfg. specifies 40W (Not 10-40W), then USE 40W .... only.

For the engine applications, the viscosity enables the bearings
(journal - crankshaft) to be lifted to the proper height within their
journals, so that the oil supports the shaft precisely at dead center
in the journal so that the shafting is in the exact cente r.... and has
equal and equidistant clearance (at the higher range of engine load) by
the pressure generated in the gallery/pump and somewhat by the
viscosity. Why viscosity is important is that viscosity (resistance to
flow) will help to support the piston load during the combustion
stroke. ........ However, If you are not 'lugging' the engine (low
rpm at HIGH load) then using a viscosity index of 1 grade lower than
specified ..... should NOT be a problem. If however youre running WOT
(wide-open-throttle) and high load ... then it becomes important to
match the specified viscosity grade (and operate at the specified
engine temp. ... as set by the thermostat.).
The short answer: OK to run lower viscosity, just watch the oil
pressure to be sure its 'similar' as when running the 'specified'
viscosity index oil.

In article , LaBomba182
wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the
new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how
to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have
to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets
of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run
30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher
temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be
seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I
wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier
weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time.
And
as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil
in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a
high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines
and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Nope - common misconception!
When you're engineering a gear set, you need to select the correct film
strength so that the clearances BETWEEN the epicyclic surfaces do not
come in contact. A gear set typically is an unpressurized application.
The more power being transmitted the higher the film strengh needed -
and there is a correlation of (kinematic) viscosity (viscous shear) and
what it will support in load without "squeezing out" and permitting
metal to metal contact. ...... totally unlike a pressurized
application like a hydrodynamic bearing journal, although the
mathematics is the same.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Wow! That sure generated a lot of talk here. I read your post and my
understanding is that your question was, would using 40 wt instead of 30
wt cause unreasonable wear to your genset engine. The answer is no. 30
wt and 40 wt are not that much different. Once hot they will both do
the same job. A quick search on the web will show that both have pour
weights in the 20s (deg F) so start up lubrication will not be that much
different. As far as prelubing the engine before start up goes, do you
really care that much? Are you really going to do that faithfully? So
long as you don't sit there revving the engine before the oil pressure
comes up the gen engine should last for years.

However, my guess is that the real issue here is making sure you don't
bust your warranties. So if it matters that much write the generator
company and get them to give you written authorization to use the 40 wt
oil in the gen set. (My first choice.) You might want to leave out
that you've already bought the unit. It just seems that once people
have your money they tend to be less helpful. Just tell them your
interested and want to know if their units can use 40 wt oil since
you're going places where they don't have a Pep Boys on every corner.

My second choice would be if worse comes to worse, how much oil do you
need for the gen set anyway? And how many hours are you going to run it
compared to the mains? Not being a fan of multi weights I would suggest
that if you don't want to run 40 wt in the gen run it in the mains and
the trannys and keep a stash of 30 wt for the generator instead of the
other way around. You can live without the gen set but it's a long walk
home without the mains.

Earl


LaBomba182 wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:20:51 -0300, Earl Haase
wrote:
Not being a fan of multi weights I would suggest
that if you don't want to run 40 wt in the gen run it in the mains and
the trannys and keep a stash of 30 wt for the generator instead of the
other way around. You can live without the gen set but it's a long walk
home without the mains.

====================================

Presumably the genset needs a lot less oil as well, and the waste oil
can all go in the same bucket.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Rich, SAE standards for 10W-40 oil call for the same film strength at engine
operating temps as 40W oil.

To be sure, some will argue whether the standards are accurate or not (there is
room to argue).

That said, I too would use 40W in a transmission over 10W-40 unless I ran out
of 40W. A transmission runs cooler than an engine and is oil bathed so has no
issues with lack of lubrication upon startup.

Nope - common misconception!
When you're engineering a gear set, you need to select the correct film
strength so that the clearances BETWEEN the epicyclic surfaces do not
come in contact. A gear set typically is an unpressurized application.
The more power being transmitted the higher the film strengh needed -
and there is a correlation of (kinematic) viscosity (viscous shear) and
what it will support in load without "squeezing out" and permitting
metal to metal contact. ...... totally unlike a pressurized
application like a hydrodynamic bearing journal, although the
mathematics is the same.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

As far as prelubing the engine before start up goes, do you
really care that much?

I do. Race mechanics do. Aircraft mechanics do. The US Navy does.

Listen to an engine upon startup with heavy oil in it (even at summertime
temps) and hear all the grinding and banging and clattering going on inside the
engine for the first ten or fifteen seconds, let the engine warm up a couple of
minutes, shut it off, restart and listen again.

If you can't hear the difference, replace the battery in the hearing aid.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Not being a fan of multi weights I

the designers of engines are very much in favor. the builders of engines are
very much in favor. the mechanics who work on engines are very much in favor.
The users who get long life from engines are very much in favor.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

"JAXAshby" wrote
Listen to an engine upon startup with heavy oil in it (even at summertime
temps) and hear all the grinding and banging and clattering going on
inside the
engine for the first ten or fifteen seconds, let the engine warm up a
couple of
minutes, shut it off, restart and listen again.

If you can't hear the difference, replace the battery in the hearing aid.

JAX is right.

Some 'Shovel Head' H-D owners had to redo their top ends every season,
sometimes more often up north. Turned out the problem was that "everybody"
knew that heavier oil was best and some even used 70 wt. Had to to get the
oil pressure in their roller-bearing Hogs up to that found in a plain
bearing Chevy! Of course it took an hour to get oil up the tiny tubes
feeding the valve rockers - oil which incidentally helped cool the head and
valves. H-D spent mucho $$ developing a multigrade to solve the problem but
"everybody" knew they didn't give enough oil pressure. Minnesota boy I know
rebuilt 7 times in 5 years then went to H-Ds multigrade and last I heard
hadn't had to rebuild in 10 year.

The only problem with using multigrade oils in some older engines is their
detergent capabilities. With few exceptions they are designed to trap and
hold dirt til it can be removed by our wonderful full-flow filters. That's
one of the reasons motors are lasting 200,000 and more miles longer than
they did in the '50s. But what if your or BSA or Triumph or Atomic-4 don't
have a full flow filter? Well then get nondetergent multigrades from Morris
in England.

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

JAXAshby wrote:

I do. Race mechanics do. Aircraft mechanics do. The US Navy does.

The only thing you've ever prelubed is your Speedo, Jax.

Tell us all about those airplane engines that get prelubed before
starting ... care to name a couple? Rhetorical question of course, Jax
has never answered a single question in response to one of his fantasy
statements.

Rick

40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
 

Rick -- for some reason, I suspect that by "Speedo," you aren't referring to
a speedometer. lol

--
Karin Conover-Lewis
Fair and Balanced since 1959
klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net


"Rick" wrote in message
nk.net...
JAXAshby wrote:

I do. Race mechanics do. Aircraft mechanics do. The US Navy does.

The only thing you've ever prelubed is your Speedo, Jax.

Tell us all about those airplane engines that get prelubed before
starting ... care to name a couple? Rhetorical question of course, Jax
has never answered a single question in response to one of his fantasy
statements.

Rick