OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

In article ,
(LaBomba182) wrote:

The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And
as an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil
in a high revving street/race car.

Like what? Frequently race cars *do* use heavy weight engine oils
because of the high temperatures involved. You use the lightest you can
get away with because you want to reduce parasitic power loss, but
that's not for engine durability - keeping the engine in one piece is
why you have to use heavier oil in the first place. As for "work harder
over time", I don't know what the "over time" part is about, but yes,
there is higher parasitic power loss with greater viscosity. But again,
this isn't a race engine where you're concerned with peak power output
anyway. Where you'd see it show up, if noticeable at all, is gal/hr.

In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

Something you *do* want to stay away from are the wide-range
multi-viscosity ratings. They are obtained with the use of modifiers
that a) break down the most quickly of any of the oil components, and b)
displace the oil itself in the lubrication mix.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?

I'm reluctant to guess without knowing the manufacturer's reasons for
specing a particular viscosity. *Generally*, unless you're doing
something silly like running 135wt gear oil in something that calls for
30wt, or oil used in hydraulic systems, the tradeoff is simply parasitic
loss vs adequate viscosity at high temp. Most damage is caused by oil
that is a) chemically incorrect for the application (GL-4 vs GL-5,
antagonistic modifier packages, etc.), b) underfilled, overfilled, or
never changed, c) inadequate viscosity at high temps.

KeS

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From:

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?


Yes it can.

OK, how ? In what ways?

Race cars do not even remotely apply to this question. Race car
engines and transmissions only need to last for the duration of one race.

Correct. That's one reason I wasn't to taken with their using that as an
example to boost their argument.

You
are more interested in longevity.

Again can you be specific as to how 40W could shorten the longevity of a diesel
compaired to using 30W?

You started out looking for a way to do
something more conveniently. Just accept that this is one convenience that
you
will have to do without.

Looks that way.

Put the correct oil specified by the manufacturer in
each machine, and look for something else where you can cut a corner without
causing future problems.

Interestingly enough, 15-40W is spec correct for both the mains and genset.


Capt. Bill

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From: Kevin Stevens

(LaBomba182) wrote:

The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier
weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time.
And
as an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight
oil
in a high revving street/race car.

Like what? Frequently race cars *do* use heavy weight engine oils
because of the high temperatures involved. You use the lightest you can
get away with because you want to reduce parasitic power loss, but
that's not for engine durability - keeping the engine in one piece is
why you have to use heavier oil in the first place. As for "work harder
over time", I don't know what the "over time" part is about, but yes,
there is higher parasitic power loss with greater viscosity. But again,
this isn't a race engine where you're concerned with peak power output
anyway. Where you'd see it show up, if noticeable at all, is gal/hr.

The Northern Lights Tech I spoke with about this on the phone said he could see
no real down side except for perhaps an increase in oil consuption. But due to
the fact that 40W is not mentioned in the specs manual it could be a warrenty
issue.



In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines
and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

Something you *do* want to stay away from are the wide-range
multi-viscosity ratings. They are obtained with the use of modifiers
that a) break down the most quickly of any of the oil components, and b)
displace the oil itself in the lubrication
mix.

I'm not a big fan of multi wieghts either. But they are speced for the mains
and gensets.


But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?

I'm reluctant to guess without knowing the manufacturer's reasons for
specing a particular viscosity.

In the manuals the oil recommendations are based on ambient air temps.

*Generally*, unless you're doing
something silly like running 135wt gear oil in something that calls for
30wt, or oil used in hydraulic systems, the tradeoff is simply parasitic
loss vs adequate viscosity at high temp. Most damage is caused by oil
that is a) chemically incorrect for the application (GL-4 vs GL-5,
antagonistic modifier packages, etc.), b) underfilled, overfilled, or
never changed, c) inadequate viscosity at high temps.

That's the way I have always understood it.

Capt. Bill

In article ,
(LaBomba182) wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have
to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets
of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher
temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be
seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And
as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil
in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill


If you call Alaska Diesel, and check with the Service Manager on spec's
for the Northern Lights Gensets, they will tell you that Delo 400 15W40
is also spec'd for those engines. CAT will also spec Delo 400 15W40
for most of their engines produced in the last 15 years. We use it
"Exclusivly" in out CAT Powerhouse that routinely runs 2.2 Megawatts
during the summers, and I switched to Delo 400 15W40, for my twin 20Kw
Northern Lights Gensets, on advice from the Factory Rep that came thru
here a few years back.

Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Subject: 40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
From: Bruce in Alaska

(LaBomba182) wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the
new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how
to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have

to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets

of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run
30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher
temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be
seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I
wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier
weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time.
And
as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil

in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a
high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines
and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill


If you call Alaska Diesel, and check with the Service Manager on spec's
for the Northern Lights Gensets, they will tell you that Delo 400 15W40
is also spec'd for those engines. CAT will also spec Delo 400 15W40
for most of their engines produced in the last 15 years. We use it
"Exclusivly" in out CAT Powerhouse that routinely runs 2.2 Megawatts
during the summers, and I switched to Delo 400 15W40, for my twin 20Kw
Northern Lights Gensets, on advice from the Factory Rep that came thru
here a few years back.

Thanks, I saw that in the eng. and genset manuals and that's what we will end
up doing. Filling the clean oil tank with 15-40W and keeping 40W in bottles
and/or pails for the trannys.

Based on this I still can't see how straight 40W would hurt the gensets in any
way.
As long as the ambient temps stay high.

Hell, multi weight oils start out at their low number and get more viscous as
their temp rises.



Capt. Bill

Here's the scoop. Mineral oil is a shape changer with temperature.
Thick as a lollypop, thin as water, depending on temperature.

If you were all fired up to reduce your stock hold, you could consider
synthetic. This has incomparably more temperature stability of
viscosity. But besides the expense, it's found to carry the
contamination less well, AND because it DOESN'T go thick as molasses
when cold, the surface run-off is greater.( Of course the initial
oil-passage fill-up and flow is much better too...)

So a synthetic and compatible mineral oil mix 3:1 would fill your
needs for a superior compatible product. Still not cheap though.

Brian W


On 12 Jun 2004 20:05:13 GMT, (LaBomba182) wrote:

OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

la bomba, you have smashed what little reputation you had left with your
question. Yet, you seem genuinely interested in the answer.

Two problems exist with using a heavier than spec'd oil. first, and the
biggest problem, is pushing that cold, thick oil around upon engine startup.
It can take many seconds for pressure oil to get to the all the bearings
needing pressure oil. The thicker the oil, the more seconds it takes.
Multi-weight oil was in fact expressly developed to reduce dry engine
startup's, particularly in colder weather. Original multi-weigh oils were no
over the long term as viscous as the oil they replaced, but the dry start
problem was cured. Today, most engine manufacturers recommended multi oils.
If you use a straight weight oil ***be sure*** to properly prelube the engine
before startup. Even with milti oils this ai good idea, with straight weights
it is really important.

Second, straight weight oils that are tood supposedly can push out seals. So I
have heard for decades but I never saw an engine that seemed to have lost its
seals due to anything but long use. Maybe it happens, dunno.

Kinda third, heavier oils take more hp from the engine to keep itself running.


OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new
boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to
run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have
to
fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets
of
different weight oils with us.
The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the
Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W
but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher
temps
than that.
I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be
seeing
even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't
hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets.
The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight
oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And
as
an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil
in
a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high
revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go
round and round in a civil fashion.
In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and
gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys.

But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here?
Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the
proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low
really cause any long term problems?



Capt. Bill

Frequently race cars *do* use heavy weight engine oils

no they don't.

Interestingly enough, 15-40W is spec correct for both the mains and genset.

15-40W lubes a cold engine sooner upon cold engine start up than 30W or 40W oil
does.

You can hear the difference.