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40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
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40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:18:42 -0000, Larry W4CSC
wrote: (JAXAshby) wrote in : As far as prelubing the engine before start up goes, do you really care that much? I do. Race mechanics do. Aircraft mechanics do. The US Navy does. Listen to an engine upon startup with heavy oil in it (even at summertime temps) and hear all the grinding and banging and clattering going on inside the engine for the first ten or fifteen seconds, let the engine warm up a couple of minutes, shut it off, restart and listen again. If you can't hear the difference, replace the battery in the hearing aid. You guys are too funny....(c; The grinding, clattering and banging is because it's a D-I-E-S-E-L!!....The blue smoke, too! I hate to tell ya'; but if the oil is slow to come up on the first startup; there is a difference in the sound. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
But what if your or BSA or Triumph or Atomic-4 don't
have a full flow filter? Well then get nondetergent multigrades from Morris in England. I use Castrol 5W-50 synthetic in my A/4. It makes for much less cranking temp until oil pressure comes up plus ten seconds more (I set the throttle so the engine won't start to prelube), and change the oil frequently. Synthetic oil flows at 300*+ plus while mineral oil does not. This means my exhaust valves last loooooooooooooots longer. (The A/4, like most engines designed prior to about 1970, used the lead in the fuel to lube the valves and valve stems.) |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
Continental. Lycoming.
Tell us all about those airplane engines that get prelubed before starting ... care to name a couple? rickie, an alleged ATP such as you would know that IF he actually were an ATP. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
I suggest you change the battery in your hearing aid, for the sounds of
grinding banging unlubed metal are plainly there. Listen to an engine upon startup with heavy oil in it (even at summertime temps) and hear all the grinding and banging and clattering going on inside the engine for the first ten or fifteen seconds, let the engine warm up a couple of minutes, shut it off, restart and listen again. If you can't hear the difference, replace the battery in the hearing aid. You guys are too funny....(c; The grinding, clattering and banging is because it's a D-I-E-S-E-L!!....The blue smoke, too! Cold cylinder walls condense the fuel spray as the piston exposes it. Fuel left in the cylinder explodes on the next power stroke before the injection takes place, especially if it doesn't start right away. It's not a high-performance, electronic engine in a goddamn Cadillac Escalade or Lamborghini, you know. It's an old, slow compression engine running on home heating oil!.....even if it's got a new jacket to make it pretty with a big row of model numbers to impress someone who just paid a lot for it..... If you ever get a chance, stand in the engine room of a big diesel-powered ship when the compressed air injection start goes off....hee hee. Your little Yanmar or Faschetti or MTU is the same engine....(c; KNOCK-KNOCK-KNOck-KNock-Knock-knock-knock-knock......................clank! What a beautiful sound!..... Larry W4CSC |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
I hate to tell ya'; but if the oil is slow to come up on the first
startup; there is a difference in the sound. you betcha. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
Horace Brownbag wrote in
: I hate to tell ya'; but if the oil is slow to come up on the first startup; there is a difference in the sound. Probably because all the slime on all the parts is COLD. You don't REALLY think it all drains down into the bilge during the night, do you, leaving just bare metal? Tell ya what.....a little test. Take some plain old Rotella and dip your screwdriver down into it. Lay the screwdriver out on something you don't care about. Feel it, say, tomorrow and see if it cleaned itself off. Next time you pump out the crankcase, dip something you love in crankcase used oil. Lay it out and see if it cleans itself off. That engine isn't bare metal when you crank it up. It's covered in slimy, greasy, carbony gook from the bottom of the crank to that leaky valve cover gasket. Speaking of that, did the engine clean itself off when that gasket leaked last? Did you ever GET it cleaned off with those exotic cleaners? Live steam will clean the parts. Engines don't have live steam, inside, we hope...(c; Larry It runs on gook! |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
larry, please don't make sophormoric comments on engine oil again. any engine
owner worth his salt can hear the difference at engine startup between a prelubed engine and one that wasn't. don't try to out guess reality while you are sitting in an armchair. Horace Brownbag wrote in : I hate to tell ya'; but if the oil is slow to come up on the first startup; there is a difference in the sound. Probably because all the slime on all the parts is COLD. You don't REALLY think it all drains down into the bilge during the night, do you, leaving just bare metal? Tell ya what.....a little test. Take some plain old Rotella and dip your screwdriver down into it. Lay the screwdriver out on something you don't care about. Feel it, say, tomorrow and see if it cleaned itself off. Next time you pump out the crankcase, dip something you love in crankcase used oil. Lay it out and see if it cleans itself off. That engine isn't bare metal when you crank it up. It's covered in slimy, greasy, carbony gook from the bottom of the crank to that leaky valve cover gasket. Speaking of that, did the engine clean itself off when that gasket leaked last? Did you ever GET it cleaned off with those exotic cleaners? Live steam will clean the parts. Engines don't have live steam, inside, we hope...(c; Larry It runs on gook! |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
Some automotive engines use oil as light as 5W20 in 100 degree F heat and yet
go 100,000+ miles without any oil related problem. Many of todays aluminum engines have done away with camshaft bearings and are using the lighter oils. But the weight or viscosity is not the total picture. Much of this depends on oil pressure. The theroy on light oils is that it is able to flow faster and since there is no, or very little oil pressure at start up, pressurized oil is able to reach component pasts faster. Since 97% of engine wear occurs at start up you can see where this is critical. Lighter oils also disapate heat faster thusly the engine runs cooler. As long as oil pressure is maintained in order to provide sufficient flow there will be no discernable wear with using 30wt in an engine perscribed to use 40wt oil. Heavy weighted oils are used primarily in engines with lower oil pressures or in extreme operating temps. In using a lighter weight oil you should see a small drop in pressure, but as long as the engine maintains oil pressure specs you will be fine. Dennis ASE Certified Master Auto Tech and Marine Engineer in training OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have to fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets of different weight oils with us. The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher temps than that. I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be seeing even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets. The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And as an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil in a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go round and round in a civil fashion. In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys. But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here? Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low really cause any long term problems? Capt. Bill |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
I don't know where you get your info but I hope you didn't have to give
anything for it. Six years employed by Kerr's Racing in Houston and more times than I dare attempt to count did I put 80wt oil in a $60,000 motor. If you have doubts I can email you an engineering spec sheet. Stick to something you know! Dennis ASE Certified Master Auto Tech and Marine Engineer in training From: (JAXAshby) Date: 6/13/04 11:02 AM Central Daylight Time Message-id: Frequently race cars *do* use heavy weight engine oils no they don't. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
WRONG! Automatics are not bathed in oil. Over half the fluid is in the torque
convertor while the remaining is held in the pan for the valve body and the clutch packs. The reason why "bathing" the gears is not critical at startup is there is no stress or load on any tranny gears or bearings when the damn thing is in park and you're cranking the engine. Dennis ASE Certified Master Auto Tech and Marine Engineer in training Transmission do not suffer from dry bearings at engine startup (as the engine does) because the gears are bathed in oil. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
there you have it, folks, straight from the denny the fraud's mouth.
denny, go back to study hall. It is not lunch time yet. Some automotive engines use oil as light as 5W20 in 100 degree F heat and yet go 100,000+ miles without any oil related problem. Many of todays aluminum engines have done away with camshaft bearings and are using the lighter oils. But the weight or viscosity is not the total picture. Much of this depends on oil pressure. The theroy on light oils is that it is able to flow faster and since there is no, or very little oil pressure at start up, pressurized oil is able to reach component pasts faster. Since 97% of engine wear occurs at start up you can see where this is critical. Lighter oils also disapate heat faster thusly the engine runs cooler. As long as oil pressure is maintained in order to provide sufficient flow there will be no discernable wear with using 30wt in an engine perscribed to use 40wt oil. Heavy weighted oils are used primarily in engines with lower oil pressures or in extreme operating temps. In using a lighter weight oil you should see a small drop in pressure, but as long as the engine maintains oil pressure specs you will be fine. Dennis ASE Certified Master Auto Tech and Marine Engineer in training OK, so I'm sitting around with the captain and his engineer friend on the new boat I'm project managing/co-captaining and we are trying to work out how to run the same weight oil in the engines, gensets and trannys so we only have to fill the clean oil tank with one weight oil and not carry any extra buckets of different weight oils with us. The CAT engines and ZF trannys can use 40W oil as per their specs but the Northern Lights gensets only recommend up to 30W oil. The CATs could run 30W but only at 86 deg. ambient air temps. We will certainly be seeing higher temps than that. I tell the capt. and eng. that based on the ambient air temps we will be seeing even with the Delta-T fans that if it weren't for a warranty issue I wouldn't hesitate to use 40W oil in the gensets. The capt. and eng. disagree. They start saying that running a heavier weight oil could cause wear problems and make the engine work harder over time. And as an example they compare it to what can happen if you use a heavy weight oil in a high revving street/race car. I point out that this is a diesel not a high revving street/race engine. They back off that point a bit but we still go round and round in a civil fashion. In the end we will end up putting 15-40W oil in the tank for the engines and gensets (as per specs) and keeping some 40W in bottles for the trannys. But other than the warranty concerns, I'm I missing something here? Would using 40W over 30W in the gensets with of course changing it at the proper number of hours and making sure that the ambient temps never get low really cause any long term problems? Capt. Bill |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
denny the fraud opens his mouth yet again.
go back to study hall, denny, it is not lunch time yet. I don't know where you get your info but I hope you didn't have to give anything for it. Six years employed by Kerr's Racing in Houston and more times than I dare attempt to count did I put 80wt oil in a $60,000 motor. If you have doubts I can email you an engineering spec sheet. Stick to something you know! Dennis ASE Certified Master Auto Tech and Marine Engineer in training From: (JAXAshby) Date: 6/13/04 11:02 AM Central Daylight Time Message-id: Frequently race cars *do* use heavy weight engine oils no they don't. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
Denny, when the hell was the last time *you* saw a marine transmission that had
a torque conventor? When the hell was the last time *you* saw an automatic transmission that ran on 40W oil? you are a fraud, dude. WRONG! Automatics are not bathed in oil. Over half the fluid is in the torque convertor while the remaining is held in the pan for the valve body and the clutch packs. The reason why "bathing" the gears is not critical at startup is there is no stress or load on any tranny gears or bearings when the damn thing is in park and you're cranking the engine. Dennis ASE Certified Master Auto Tech and Marine Engineer in training Transmission do not suffer from dry bearings at engine startup (as the engine does) because the gears are bathed in oil. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
Esourcedesigns wrote:
Stick to something you know! Teflon Jax, he couldn't stick to anything in that case. Rick |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
JAXAshby wrote:
Continental. Lycoming. Jax, as usual you are skittering along like a slimeball, all you have done is name a couple of engine manufacturers. Please tell us what make and model of aircraft engine requires, or even has the facility to prelube before starting. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to answer. You usual one-line insult post will prove my point that you are an ignorant wannabe who has no life outside usenet. Rick |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
Esourcedesigns wrote:
Stick to something you know! Teflon Jax, he couldn't stick to anything in that case. Rick I do know a fraud when I see one. In this case, two frauds, rickie sluggs (the bogus ATP) and whothehellever the clown ecsourdesigns is who is trying to get rich on the net selling moly oil or some such |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
rickie, fine fine fine pilot that you claim to be, have you EVER noticed that
preluber mounted on the front of those engines? Next time you drive by an FBO (look up the term) slow down a bit -- stop if you have to -- and LOOK. JAXAshby wrote: Continental. Lycoming. Jax, as usual you are skittering along like a slimeball, all you have done is name a couple of engine manufacturers. Please tell us what make and model of aircraft engine requires, or even has the facility to prelube before starting. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to answer. You usual one-line insult post will prove my point that you are an ignorant wannabe who has no life outside usenet. Rick |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
sorry, gene, you are only partly right. yes, that is a propeller, but no it
does not scrub the oil off. you pull the prop through many times (or crank over with the mags turned off) to bring the oil pressure up to pressure to lube the bearings before startup. At least that is what pilots who care about their engines do. That is a little beyond the conprehension of some pilots to be sure, but not the vast majority. Jax, that pre-luber mounted on the front of the engine is called a propeller and it will move the pistons up and down in the cylinder to check for liquid lock. It will NOT prelube the engine, in fact, it will scrape the oil off of the cylinder walls since there is no splash or spray lubrication to restore what the scraper ring removes.... There are STCs to install a small electric motor and pump on the firewall for the purpose of prelubing... it is not from either Lycoming or Continental and it is not visible from the front of the aircraft. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
There are STCs to install a small electric motor and pump on the
firewall for the purpose of prelubing. that is for pilots who know their engine needs prelubing but at just too lazy to pull the prop over. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
|
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
you pull the prop through many times
*that*, I'd like to see.... a little weak in the arm, are you gene? or are you just suggesting you like to see a man's arm involved in doing something useful? |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
the world's expert on torque convertor marine transmissions and the engine oils
used in such: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2...n&lr=&ie=UTF-8 &selm=6d79lt4gtn64l7elkiklme3vhdktvg75f9%404ax.com &rnum=2 |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
so, how come you didn't know what a propeller is?
gene, give it up and go back to study hall. Jax, I'm a certificated aircraft mechanic and factory trained by Lycoming and Continental. I touch these engines every day so I know pretty much what they look like. However, I won't continue to upset you by offering FACTS that contradict that comfortable little JaxWorld you live in. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
a little weak in the arm, are you gene?
|
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
I'm a certificated aircraft mechanic and factory trained
a high school buddy of mine had one of those licenses before his 19th birthday. How many years did it take you to get yours? It seems oil was not covered in the class you took. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
JAXAshby wrote the most incredible garbage that proves he is nothing but
an ignorant wannabe and is not worth repeating: Where do you get this stuff, Jax? It never ceases to amaze me how consistently stupid you are about this sort of thing. Do you really believe what you write or are you just so lonely and perverted that any attention at all keeps you alive? Jaxworld is truly a bizarre place ... One can only wonder how you find your way out at all. Just to keep on topic, and twist the knife in your empty brain pan: I used to fly between a couple of engines on which the start sequence included opening an air snifter valve in order to - prevent - lube oil from being pumped to the bearings. Google that one and get back to us with your version. It will be interesting, I am sure. Rick |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
On Sunday 20 June 2004 2:44 pm in rec.boats.cruising Rick wrote:
Jaxworld is truly a bizarre place ... One can only wonder how you find your way out at all. Just plonk the troll into your killfile, he only does it to get attention. Just to keep on topic, and twist the knife in your empty brain pan: I used to fly between a couple of engines on which the start sequence included opening an air snifter valve in order to - prevent - lube oil from being pumped to the bearings. And count 5 blades before hitting the mags..... -- My real address is crn (at) netunix (dot) com WARNING all messages containing attachments or html will be silently deleted. Send only plain text. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:44:08 GMT, something compelled Rick
, to say: Jaxworld is truly a bizarre place Jaxworld is a poorly lighted downstairs room in a seedy tract house located in a dead end rust belt town. The kind of town where young people with a clue abandon as quickly as possible, leaving it to retired folk on pensions, the few that find gainful employment providing goods and services to those retirees, and dope smoking losers without enough ambition to take the minor steps required to improve their lives. Jaxworld has as its primary citizen, a fat goggle glassed scraggle beard vaguely odoriferous male in his late twenties. He's working at the same Shell station he started working in the summer of his junior year, and has been promoted all the way to night manager. This means he's in charge of washing the floors and rest rooms, refilling the windshield cleaner buckets, and scheduling the odd oil change or lube job for the next day when the mechanic will be in. He has asked to *be* the mechanic, but his constant arguing with the customers has made it clear that it's better for them and for him to be placed as far from them as possible. His title as manager is the default for what is actually 'the only guy who's here at night, because there isn't enough business to keep two people on'. At eleven he closes up, balances the numbers on the pump with the credit card receipts and cash, and stuffs it all into the slot in the barrel safe for which he has no key, for the owner to review the next morning. He stops by the late night diner to get a double cheeseburger with bacon and a plate of greasy fries, the same meal he has every night. The wait staff is generally polite to him, except for the slightly overweight, mildly retarded seventeen year old girl he obsessed over for a couple of months, until her father stopped by the station one night with his shotgun in the back window. Told him those things were always going off by accident, and wouldn't it be a shame if it was pointed at him when that happened? And that leaving his daughter alone would be a good way to avoid an accident. Jax makes it a point to not speak with the girl any more, but that doesn't stop him from including her in his masturbatory fantasies, along with the girls on the oil company calendars his boss puts up in the employee washroom. Jax pays for his meal, leaving a niggardly tip, and makes his way home to his rented room. He was happy living in his parent's house until at twenty three his father told him, yelled to him, "Get the hell out and make something of yourself, boy!" as his mother silently wept in the kitchen. She knew that he had to get out, but she also knew that he was ill equipped for the real world. He boots his eMachine with the fifteen inch monitor he salvaged from the high school scrap heap, s******ing to himself about how they were so stupid to throw out a perfectly good piece of equipment. So what if the red gun is dead? Windows95 finally starts, the Pentium 133 processor making maximum use of all thirty two megabytes of ram. The 14.4 modem wails its mating call to the modem bank at his ISP, the newsreader takes its place in RAM, and Jax is transformed from the fat greasy ****** he is in real life to the highly educated, erudite, knowledgable being he plays on usenet. Unfortunately for him, much like the guy in the white jacket in the aspirin commercials who states that he isn't a doctor but plays one on TV, Jax can't completely fill out his usenet character. His performance falls flat, and he has as much success as he's had with the seventeen year old, or in fact any other part of his life. There it is. Jaxworld. Take off your hat and jacket, pull up a chair, pop open a Pabst and set awhile. If you have the stomach for it. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
I
used to fly between a couple of engines on which the start sequence included opening an air snifter valve in order to - prevent - lube oil from being pumped to the bearings. sure you did. that damned oil is such a bad thing for bearings. nobody who is anybody puts oil in an engine. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
|
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
There it is. Jaxworld. Take off your hat and jacket, pull up a
chair, pop open a Pabst and set awhile. I believe Mary Pabst is dead. Anyway, she was one loony woman, a much-to-avoid. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
some people are weak from the get-go, gene. most don't brag about it though.
a little weak in the arm, are you gene? perhaps because I don't spend as much time "building up that muscle" as you do.... -- Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC. |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
actually gene, I taught him much of what he knew about mechanics while we were
still in junior and senior high school (I worked as a professinal mechanic starting the summer I was twelve years old, my father owned the place). The year after high school he earned his license. When he was drafted, the military thought so much of his license they made him a rifleman. After he got out of the service he used his license to earn a living for a period of time, but quit the aircraft business to earn a much better living pounding nails as a carpenter. I'm a certificated aircraft mechanic and factory trained a high school buddy of mine had one of those licenses before his 19th birthday. How many years did it take you to get yours? It certainly didn't take me nineteen years. I'm not sure what went wrong in your life, Jax... from what you say, your friend finally became mechanically proficient and knowledgeable and, well, I guess you took "the other road." Sorry about that, Jax.... Perhaps you could call your friend and he could set you straight. He could draw pictures and be more detailed than I have been.... It seems oil was not covered in the class you took. Probably not the same oil that you remember from your school daze.... was that vegetable oil from Home Ec? or do you only remember sex ed? Oh, the Speedos..... that must be it! Ok, Jax, we do *not* lube engines with Motion Lotion........ Please see your high school buddy for clarification and a refresher.... -- Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC. http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage http://www.southharbourvillageinn.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC is located. http://www.southharbourvillageinn.linksysnet.com Real Time Pictures at My Marina http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
On 20 Jun 2004 20:21:36 GMT, something compelled
(JAXAshby), to say: I first fixed engines professionally back before Kennedy was elected. For which we have only your word. I'll bet the piece I wrote entertained a lot more people than anything *you* ever wrote. my entire post, quoted for no apparent reason, snipped -- You would not know someone who writes well if you hit you in the groin. Stephen Hauskins 2/4/98 |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
gee, thanks, steivee little boy.
sorry, but I ain't interest no how in any fagot types. Spam" Date: 6/20/2004 9:39 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: On 20 Jun 2004 20:21:36 GMT, something compelled (JAXAshby), to say: I first fixed engines professionally back before Kennedy was elected. For which we have only your word. I'll bet the piece I wrote entertained a lot more people than anything *you* ever wrote. my entire post, quoted for no apparent reason, snipped -- You would not know someone who writes well if you hit you in the groin. Stephen Hauskins 2/4/98 |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
the world's expert on torque convertor marine transmissions and the engine
oils used in such: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...%22JAXAshby%22 |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
I did a google, and found the below web site. Quite interesting
"oil-wise". Talks about cold-start also. Download the "Oil Bible" (177 pdf pages)...it explains the attributes of motor oil, the standards,and the testing methods. I now know what the "5" stands for in 5W30...and it isnt' what I thought it was...:) http://www.trustmymechanic.com/motoroil.html If anyone spots a more authoritive source, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Norm B |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
dennie, you operate a fork lift in a boat dealership in the Texas desert within
trailing distance of a resevoir. This, you claim, makes you an expert on torque convertor marine transmissions, and the use of engine oil in those torque convertors. A quick read of some of your ramblings on the net show that you are trying against all hope to give up the life of a fork lift operator and move on to what you consider the The Big Time as a web site developer, but so far find your ass getting kicked in that business by high school kids who do a more professional job of design. Likely guess is that you known even less about web design than you do about torque convertor marine transmissions. [snip all but the important stuff fork lift dennie posted] |
40W oil causing wear problems over 30w?
JAXAshby wrote:
sure you did. that damned oil is such a bad thing for bearings. nobody who is anybody puts oil in an engine. Geez, Jax, how come a "professional mechanic" like you who claims to know the names of two aircraft engine manufacturers and claims that their engines incorporate and/or require prelubing doesn't know what I am describing? Can't Google the info? You are SO busted, you slimy wannabe fraud ... Jax the "mechanic" ....Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Rick |
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