On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:17:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:55:54 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Capt. JG wrote:
"Stephen Trapani" wrote in message
...
Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:00:04 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:09:13 -0800, Stephen Trapani
wrote:

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:35:29 -0800, Stephen Trapani
[...]
The Christians? Well, maybe start a new sect?
The Christians have no monopoly on sects. The Shia and Sunnis are
both Muslims and kill each other over their differences about what
the Koran says. Moderate Muslims also live in free societies without
clashing with the laws like extremists do. I'm not sure what you're
not getting here.
True, but they are all Moslems when it comes time to dealing with the
Infidel. The Shia and Sunnis are divided by who legally inherited
Muhammad's authority not by interpretations of the Koran. Cultural
differences also interact here as the main Sunni grouping is Saudi
Arabian while the Shias are stronger in the old Persian areas. Iraq
is, of course a mixture with the resulting havoc. and of course there
are a number of sub groupings like Wahabis, et al. But he fact
remains
that they all believe the Book.
That's the beauty of it. Once they accept the principle that the book
contains some metaphor, it's all the true word of God, but you can
still make it say just about anything you want because God isn't
crystal clear about everything. It's mysterious, don't ya know. *All*
denominations do it.
Rather then my trying, in vain, to convince you that you don't have a
glimmer about what you are taking about I suggest that you catch a
flight to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia
or any of the other Moslem countries and discuss your proposed changes
to the Koran with the indigenous peoples.

If you will publicize your departure date I will keep close watch on
the news media but my guess is that hardly a week will pass before a
fatwa is issued against you for insulting the faith and we can watch
you dodge the lads looking to gain credit with God by canceling your
ticket.
Don't stand on ceremony now, keep us advised of your travel plans.
Perhaps you to can be on television. Cheers,
Your contention, then, is that there is only one interpretation of the
Koran, every Muslim interprets it all the same. This is, of course,
utter nonsense and it appears to be you that needs to get out more.

Stephen
T
Rather then argue about it, I suggest that you do a little research on
the subject. Read Wiki, although I admit that is a very basic source:

Islamic scholars believe that the Quran is miraculous by its very
nature in being a revealed text and that similar texts cannot be
written by human endeavor. Its miraculous nature is claimed to be
evidenced by its literary style, suggested similarities between
Quranic verses and scientific facts discovered much later, and various
prophecies. The Quran itself challenges those who deny its claimed
divine origin to produce a text like it. [Qur'an 17:88][Qur'an
2:23][Qur'an 10:38].[49][50][51] These claims originate directly from
Islamic belief in its revealed nature...

Or:
Muslims believe the Quran to be the book of divine guidance and
direction for mankind and consider the text in its original Arabic to
be the literal word of God, revealed to Muhammad through the angel
Gabriel over a period of twenty-three years and view the Quran as
God's final revelation to humanity.

Or:
Muslims maintain the present wording of the Qur'anic text corresponds
exactly to that revealed to Muhammad himself: as the words of God,
said to be delivered to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel. Muslims
consider the Qur'an to be a guide, a sign of the prophethood of
Muhammad and the truth of the religion. They argue it is not possible
for a human to produce a book like the Qur'an, as the Qur'an itself
maintains.

In short, Moslems believe that the Koran is the word of God and
unchangeable.

My experience, living in the largest Moslem country in the world for
some 20 years, indicates that you are totally wrong and my suggestion
still stands and appears to be perfectly reasonable. Rather then try to
convince a bunch of non-Moslems that you are right
it would seem that convincing a group of Moslems would be far a far
more convincing argument that you are correct.
I'm going to try one last time to explain to you what you are failing to
understand. Christians and Muslims *all* believe that their Book is *all*
the divine, perfect Word of God. But God speaks in riddles sometimes, in
metaphor other times, and crystal clear other times. There are passages in
each book that are widely contested among each religion. This contention
divides members of each religion into denominations, factions, etc. If you
think that your country contains Muslims that all agree and don't separate
themselves into different denominations based upon their interpretation of
their book then you need to open your eyes and look around.

Stephen

Seems to me that you've described just about every religion on the face of
the Earth. The only group I can think of that seems to be monolithic are
atheists. If you don't believe in God, then there's no quibbling.

Bingo.

Here is a page describing roughly forty divisions among Islam. I'm sure
those divisions also have their divisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam

Stephen


Yes, Stephen, I am aware that there are divisions amount the Faithful
but even you, an Infidel, can read. Stop! Go back and read it again.
Nowhere does it say that this or that group disagrees with the words
in the Koran.

They disagree about what the words mean, obviously. This is what I have
been saying over and over but apparently you have a blind spot about it
for some reason and refuse to understand.

As the most common example:

The two major divisions of Islam are the Sunni's and the Shiaa who
disagree, not about the Koran, but about who the successor to Muhammad
should have been.

Now, I have knows Sunni and Shia Moslems in Indonesia and I can assure
you that both venerate the Koran. Both keep the Koran on a high shelf
in their homes; both kiss the book or place it to their forehead
before opening. Your assertion that you are going to get Moslems to
agree to a change in the words or meaning of the Book is based on a
lack of knowledge of the religion.
Cheers,

Okay, this stuff is obviously way over your head and it's pointless to
keep trying to help you understand. I never said anyone should change
the words in the book, just that all religions have disagreements about
what the words in their book mean. I gave you a reference that pointed
out more than forty different divisions within Islam, but apparently
this went right over your head. Maybe you are so unfamiliar with
religion that you don't realize why and how these divisions exist. If
you are ever curious, simply go back over what I have said in this
thread and you'll find the explanation.

Stephen

You keep insisting that the Moslems will somehow agree to change the
meaning of things stated in the Koran and you even post a reference a
Wiki reference to divisions in Islam, which I read. But nowhere in the
reference you produced does it mention that any of the dissenting
groups are interpreting the Koran differently and in fact the only
"true Koran" is the Arabic language version, not any of the various
authorized translations.

But, this discussion is going nowhere. I lived in Indonesia for more
then 20 years and during some periods as the only foreigner in a
hundred kilometers, isolation.

As I was usually either a supervisor of staffs of Moslems or, in some
cases living in Moslem environments it behooved me to know something
about the predominate religion in the area so I did study Islam and
while I am not learned enough the call myself an Imam I certainly
learned the basics, and more importantly, how the people themselves
regard their religion and quite simply your assertion that the Koran
would/could be interpreted to mean something different would regarded
as the gravest heresy throughout the country and by any of the various
Moslem sects that live there.

You, obviously, have never been in close contact with Islam and
frankly, don't know what you are talking about in this instance, so
any effort expended to attempt to educate you regarding Islam is
obviously doomed.

I can only repeat my suggestion that you journey to any Islamic
country and convince the inhabitants that the words of Muhammad
(blessed be his name) can/should be interpreted and report back.

Cheers,

Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)

Bruce In Bangkok wrote:

As I was usually either a supervisor of staffs of Moslems or, in some
cases living in Moslem environments it behooved me to know something
about the predominate religion in the area so I did study Islam and
while I am not learned enough the call myself an Imam I certainly
learned the basics, and more importantly, how the people themselves
regard their religion and quite simply your assertion that the Koran
would/could be interpreted to mean something different would regarded
as the gravest heresy throughout the country and by any of the various
Moslem sects that live there.

So you studied Islam and never new this:

From: http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encycloped...364/Koran.html

"The tradition of tafsir has often reflected divergences and trends
within Islam. Shiite interpretation of particular verses (of the Koran)
has often differed radically from that of the Sunnis, finding, for
instance, references to the special status of Ali ibn Abi Talib and the
Imams in the Koranic verses. In recent times both reforming “modernists”
and “fundamentalists” have interpreted the text in ways which conform
with their own viewpoints. Some have sought to show that the Koran is
not only in conformity with many of the ideas of modern science but
actually prefigures them. It is the often opaque nature of the Koranic
text itself which makes such divergent approaches possible."

I'll call your attention to the last sentence in particular, which
pretty much echoes what I said about all religions' Holy Books.

You, obviously, have never been in close contact with Islam and
frankly, don't know what you are talking about in this instance, so
any effort expended to attempt to educate you regarding Islam is
obviously doomed.

What does it mean that someone who, as you say, has never been in close
contact with Islam, can know far more about this fundamental aspect of
it than you do?

Stephen

On 5-Jan-2009, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:

You didn't read the article? It specifically states that houses built by
Jimmy Carter personally - he worked on them in other words, pounding
nails,
etc. - were falling apart. Duh!

You are overlooking the good part of that news...as long as the Carter clown
is pounding nails, he's not sucking up to dicktaters and terrorists!

"Steve" wrote in message
...

On 5-Jan-2009, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:

You didn't read the article? It specifically states that houses built by
Jimmy Carter personally - he worked on them in other words, pounding
nails,
etc. - were falling apart. Duh!

You are overlooking the good part of that news...as long as the Carter
clown
is pounding nails, he's not sucking up to dicktaters and terrorists!



Who needs Carter anymore? 53% of the idiot voters have elected Obama to do
that exact thing now.

Wilbur Hubbard

Stephen Trapani wrote in news:ivAcl.26955
:

msn.com

You stupid ass. MSN is just like asking a rabbi for facts....

"Steve" wrote in message
...

On 5-Jan-2009, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:

You didn't read the article? It specifically states that houses built by
Jimmy Carter personally - he worked on them in other words, pounding
nails,
etc. - were falling apart. Duh!

You are overlooking the good part of that news...as long as the Carter
clown
is pounding nails, he's not sucking up to dicktaters and terrorists!
Your boy in action: http://www.flickr.com/photos/911review/293457625/

"Steve" wrote in message
...

On 5-Jan-2009, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote:

You didn't read the article? It specifically states that houses built by
Jimmy Carter personally - he worked on them in other words, pounding
nails,
etc. - were falling apart. Duh!

You are overlooking the good part of that news...as long as the Carter
clown
is pounding nails, he's not sucking up to dicktaters and terrorists!

I should have mentioned daddy Bush's ties the bin Ladin family through the
Carlyle Group.