On Dec 2, 2:17 pm, Two meter troll wrote:
On Dec 1, 8:33 pm, Frogwatch wrote:



On Dec 1, 10:56 pm, Wayne.B wrote:

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 01:53:46 GMT, "Janet O'Leary"

wrote:
I am working while doing the planning so you know how that goes..

Work is the curse of the sailing class.

IN this case, I do not care if she is a Neal sockpuppet because it has
been interesting revealing a great diff in sailing philosophy amongst
us. Some of us think the mentioned boat can be brought up to good
cruising abilities for little, others think it will take a lot of
money. The interesting thing to me is that the difference in opinion
exists. Is it possible that both are right but each has different
expectations about cruising? In my case, I take a minimalist approach
in which I emphasize doing things very simple but doing them
nevertheless. Others are very detail oriented and dot every "i" and
cross every "t" etc. so it costs them a lot more but they do not feel
good otherwise. Neither side is completely correct except for what
matters most to them.

for my part i do most of the fix and repair myself; so some costs are
not as evident as others. I dont figure time fixing the boat as some
loss of income; to me every fix makes it so i have another tool to use
on other boats which in the long term makes me money. making equipment
is the same, any that i make improves my skill, removes the great cost
that production gear has, and over the long term lessins the cost of
boat upkeep; it also makes me money cause folks that see a hand turned/
built block that works well and lasts ask me to make more and pay the
price for my work. sea bags, ditty bags, buckets, worked sail covers,
etc. keep my hands buisy at sea on one boat or another and then make a
profit when i get to shore and sell them.

for me an old boat is a way to make bank later.

I admit, I have poor luck with gadgets so I tend to use whatever old
and simple way worked before the gadget became available. I suppose
this is why I still use paper charts and my old hand bearing compass.
Maybe I just expect gadgets to take the kind of abuse my older less
gadgety stuff does. As someone pointed out, my acceptance of my old
boat is probably because it is far more comfy than my old caving
obsession even if has no amenities. I really do think that equipment
should stand up to severe abuse, otherwise it is likely to fail when
you really need it.

On Dec 2, 2:55 pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Dec 2, 2:17 pm, Two meter troll wrote:



On Dec 1, 8:33 pm, Frogwatch wrote:

On Dec 1, 10:56 pm, Wayne.B wrote:

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 01:53:46 GMT, "Janet O'Leary"

wrote:
I am working while doing the planning so you know how that goes..

Work is the curse of the sailing class.

IN this case, I do not care if she is a Neal sockpuppet because it has
been interesting revealing a great diff in sailing philosophy amongst
us. Some of us think the mentioned boat can be brought up to good
cruising abilities for little, others think it will take a lot of
money. The interesting thing to me is that the difference in opinion
exists. Is it possible that both are right but each has different
expectations about cruising? In my case, I take a minimalist approach
in which I emphasize doing things very simple but doing them
nevertheless. Others are very detail oriented and dot every "i" and
cross every "t" etc. so it costs them a lot more but they do not feel
good otherwise. Neither side is completely correct except for what
matters most to them.

for my part i do most of the fix and repair myself; so some costs are
not as evident as others. I dont figure time fixing the boat as some
loss of income; to me every fix makes it so i have another tool to use
on other boats which in the long term makes me money. making equipment
is the same, any that i make improves my skill, removes the great cost
that production gear has, and over the long term lessins the cost of
boat upkeep; it also makes me money cause folks that see a hand turned/
built block that works well and lasts ask me to make more and pay the
price for my work. sea bags, ditty bags, buckets, worked sail covers,
etc. keep my hands buisy at sea on one boat or another and then make a
profit when i get to shore and sell them.

for me an old boat is a way to make bank later.

I admit, I have poor luck with gadgets so I tend to use whatever old
and simple way worked before the gadget became available. I suppose
this is why I still use paper charts and my old hand bearing compass.
Maybe I just expect gadgets to take the kind of abuse my older less
gadgety stuff does. As someone pointed out, my acceptance of my old
boat is probably because it is far more comfy than my old caving
obsession even if has no amenities. I really do think that equipment
should stand up to severe abuse, otherwise it is likely to fail when
you really need it.

B'sides, it isnt an adventure if it isnt a little uncomfortable.

wrote:
STRONGLY disagree about non-metal lifelines. Far too easy to damage.
You (or someone else) may nick one without ever even realizing it

Only if you're the kind of dumbass that wanders around waving a
samurai sword carelessly.

First of all, the kind of line that one would use does not "nick"
easily.

2nd a "nick" would not cost it much strength and it has plenty to
spare.

3rd that's what every single Cat 1 offshore racer has used for the
past 15 years. I haven't seen bare wire lifelines on anything lately.
The cheapo cruisers are still using plastic covered wire and everybody
else is using Dyneema or a variant.


If you want something more comfortable than bare stainless wire, there
are split covers that can be removed for inspection, as well as clear
plastic covers.

Might be a good option if you are in the "stick or rock" technology
bracket. But it's not approved for Cat 1 or Cat 0 offshore use. Does
that tell you anything?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:46:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

wrote:
STRONGLY disagree about non-metal lifelines. Far too easy to damage.
You (or someone else) may nick one without ever even realizing it

Only if you're the kind of dumbass that wanders around waving a
samurai sword carelessly.


I have no idea if that's what you do, but you are certainly a dumbass.
The rest of your post proves it conclusively.

First of all, the kind of line that one would use does not "nick"
easily.

2nd a "nick" would not cost it much strength and it has plenty to
spare.

3rd that's what every single Cat 1 offshore racer has used for the
past 15 years. I haven't seen bare wire lifelines on anything lately.
The cheapo cruisers are still using plastic covered wire and everybody
else is using Dyneema or a variant.


Sailboat cruising and offshore sailboat racing are entirely different
endeavors with different requirements. You do neither. That may
explain why your opinions are based on magazine articles.



If you want something more comfortable than bare stainless wire, there
are split covers that can be removed for inspection, as well as clear
plastic covers.

Might be a good option if you are in the "stick or rock" technology
bracket. But it's not approved for Cat 1 or Cat 0 offshore use. Does
that tell you anything?

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

.... that's what every single Cat 1 offshore racer has used for the
past 15 years. I haven't seen bare wire lifelines on anything lately.
The cheapo cruisers are still using plastic covered wire and everybody
else is using Dyneema or a variant.

wrote:
Sailboat cruising and offshore sailboat racing are entirely different
endeavors with different requirements.

Not with regard to lifelines.

.... You do neither. That may
explain why your opinions are based on magazine articles.


?? I haven't written any magazine articles.... lately.

DSK

wrote:
Sailboat cruising and offshore sailboat racing are entirely different
endeavors with different requirements.

wrote:
Not with regard to lifelines.


wrote:
Really? Are you sure?

Yep.

....Ocean racers have kids and non-sailors aboard
some or all of the time? They haul a dinghy and outboard on deck over
the lifelines?

Generally not.
Of the stuff that cruiser keep on board, and people (of any size), how
much/many do they want to go overboard due to lifeline failure?
Somewhere around zero, according to every one I've ever seen or talked
to.

And racers also have an interest in keeping people & objects on board,
and particularly want to avoid lifeline failure.


... I wasn't aware of just how similar ocean racing was to
cruising. I stand corrected!

You don't have to stand in my presence. Please sit if you like. Smoke
'em if you got 'em.

DSK

wrote:
Smoking is bad for you.

Yes it is.

... I wonder how fast a lit cigarette will damage
or even sever a plastic lifeline?

Depends on what the "plastic" is.
Many kinds of hi-strength line don't melt unless you get the temp much
much higher. It's rather frustrating because they need an old-
fashioned whipped end instead of just neatly melting it.

OTOH a cigarette can burn a hole in a sail in an instant.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote in message
...
wrote:
Smoking is bad for you.

Yes it is.

... I wonder how fast a lit cigarette will damage
or even sever a plastic lifeline?

Depends on what the "plastic" is.
Many kinds of hi-strength line don't melt unless you get the temp much
much higher. It's rather frustrating because they need an old-
fashioned whipped end instead of just neatly melting it.

Yes. some while ago when I first had experience with a kevlar rope I was
surprised that my electric cutting knife made no impression on it at all. I
had to saw it through with a serrated edged knife and even that took some
time.

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:40:02 -0800 (PST), wrote:

wrote:
Smoking is bad for you.

Yes it is.

... I wonder how fast a lit cigarette will damage
or even sever a plastic lifeline?

Depends on what the "plastic" is.
Many kinds of hi-strength line don't melt unless you get the temp much
much higher. It's rather frustrating because they need an old-
fashioned whipped end instead of just neatly melting it.

OTOH a cigarette can burn a hole in a sail in an instant.


Which brings us right back to - Smoking is bad for you!

On Dec 4, 3:24*am, wrote:
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:40:02 -0800 (PST), wrote:
wrote:
Smoking is bad for you.

Yes it is.

... I wonder how fast a lit cigarette will damage
or even sever a plastic lifeline?

Depends on what the "plastic" is.
Many kinds of hi-strength line don't melt unless you get the temp much
much higher. It's rather frustrating because they need an old-
fashioned whipped end instead of just neatly melting it.

OTOH a cigarette can burn a hole in a sail in an instant.

Which brings us right back to - Smoking is bad for you!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

ya so is driving a car and eating butter and working a computer and
drinking and breathing O2 shall i go on. face it everything is bad for
you. and death is heriditary.