On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef groups.com

Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.

You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not waterproof,
but I have always lived under the impression that it is not only waterproof
but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy, that is.

I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in
lab conditions. Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the
most hyped epoxy, let water in. The key however is to engineer with
that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than
in.


This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an osmosis-barrier on
new polyester boats, for instance.

Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats
soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to
the laminate itself. But I am more of a wooden boat guy.

It is also the justification of the
techniques the Gougeon brothers have been promoting for ages.

God bless the Gougeon Bros indeed, they have moved the process along
for sure, but they still sell goo!

--
Lodewijk

Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down
yet. Have a great day and go build a boat!

wrote:

On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:


schreef groups.com



Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.


You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not waterproof,
but I have always lived under the impression that it is not only waterproof
but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy, that is.



I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in
lab conditions. Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the
most hyped epoxy, let water in. The key however is to engineer with
that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than
in.



This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an osmosis-barrier on
new polyester boats, for instance.



Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats
soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to
the laminate itself. But I am more of a wooden boat guy.



It is also the justification of the
techniques the Gougeon brothers have been promoting for ages.



God bless the Gougeon Bros indeed, they have moved the process along
for sure, but they still sell goo!


--
Lodewijk



Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down
yet. Have a great day and go build a boat!



-------------------------------------------

polyester resin (fiberglass resin) is rather porous, which is why many
hulls develop blisters. The simple fix is to coat them / waterproof then
with a layer of epoxy which is much less porous than polyester resin.

is epoxy waterproof. consider your skin. you don't leak when you go
swimming (pls don't pee in the pool!) but technically our skin passes
lots of fluids. FYI

paul oman - progressive epoxy polymers inc

schreef in
ps.com

On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef
groups.com

Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.

You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not
waterproof, but I have always lived under the impression that it is
not only waterproof but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy,
that is.

I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in
lab conditions.

You may not use it in lab-conditions, but I am sure that you use measured
amounts of resin and hardener. Quite a different story from polyester,
where the amount of catalyst used is much less critical.

Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the
most hyped epoxy, let water in.

If you are that convinced that it lets water in, I wonder why and how you
use it al all.

The key however is to engineer with
that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than
in.

That is right, of course. Don't use it on wet wood. Preferably, don't use
it on massive wood of large sections.

This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an
osmosis-barrier on new polyester boats, for instance.

Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats
soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to
the laminate itself.

Maybe you have not seen enough polyester boats.
Osmosis (blistering of the gelcoat and sometimes of the laminate itself)
is a pretty common illness to polyester boats. It does not necessarily
mean that a boat is up for the scrapyard, but it scares the hell out of
many polyester boat-owners, allright.

But I am more of a wooden boat guy.

That figures.

Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down
yet.

I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use epoxy
and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities of epoxy.
I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer your work if
you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're not
knowledgeable enough.

--
Lodewijk

On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef oups.com





On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef
groups.com

Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.

You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not
waterproof, but I have always lived under the impression that it is
not only waterproof but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy,
that is.

I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in
lab conditions.

You may not use it in lab-conditions, but I am sure that you use measured
amounts of resin and hardener. Quite a different story from polyester,
where the amount of catalyst used is much less critical.

Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the
most hyped epoxy, let water in.

If you are that convinced that it lets water in, I wonder why and how you
use it al all.

The key however is to engineer with
that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than
in.

That is right, of course. Don't use it on wet wood. Preferably, don't use
it on massive wood of large sections.

This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an
osmosis-barrier on new polyester boats, for instance.

Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats
soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to
the laminate itself.

Maybe you have not seen enough polyester boats.
Osmosis (blistering of the gelcoat and sometimes of the laminate itself)
is a pretty common illness to polyester boats. It does not necessarily
mean that a boat is up for the scrapyard, but it scares the hell out of
many polyester boat-owners, allright.

But I am more of a wooden boat guy.

That figures.

Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down
yet.

I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use epoxy
and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities of epoxy.
I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer your work if
you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're not
knowledgeable enough.

--
Lodewijk- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about
me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my
post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of
just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid...

schreef in
ups.com

On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:

I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use
epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities
of epoxy. I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer
your work if you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're
not knowledgeable enough.

You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about
me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my
post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of
just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid...

There's not all that much content in your post.

Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering.
I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood
and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities.

For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't
move with it. How do you engineer that?

--
Lodewijk

On Jul 11, 5:08 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef roups.com

On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use
epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities
of epoxy. I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer
your work if you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're
not knowledgeable enough.
You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about
me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my
post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of
just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid...

There's not all that much content in your post.

Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering.
I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood
and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities.

Why so narrow minded. I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a
laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood.

For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't
move with it. How do you engineer that?

Epoxy moves just fine in joints. In fact it is much more pliable than
polyester, please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about
boats.

--
Lodewijk

schreef in
ps.com

On Jul 11, 5:08 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:

There's not all that much content in your post.

Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering.
I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use
wood and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof
qualities.

Why so narrow minded. I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a
laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood.

Narrow-minded? I have some experience with epoxy too, and I wonder what
makes you so self assured about epoxy not being waterproof. As far as
'goo's' go, you will have a hard time finding one more waterproof than
epoxy.
Of course everything relative. Glass or steel will be more waterproof
than epoxy, but it is waterproof enough to use it in woodcore boats or
stitch-and-glue boats to make them last for a very long time.

For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy
won't move with it. How do you engineer that?

Epoxy moves just fine in joints.

It might work with massive wood joints, if the cross-sections are
relatively small. I works better when glueing plywood. The joints last
longest in boats that are designed to be build using epoxy throughout.
Do you build such boats?

In fact it is much more pliable than
polyester,

Cured epoxy can vary in flexibility, depending on the type of hardener
you use. Not every combination works, if you want flexibility.
Comparing epoxy and polyester when talking about gluing is useless.
Polyester resin sucks as a glue for wood.

please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about
boats.

Maybe I'm here to teach you about epoxy...

--
Lodewijk

On Jul 11, 5:54 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef oups.com

On Jul 11, 5:08 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
There's not all that much content in your post.

Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering.
I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use
wood and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof
qualities.

Why so narrow minded. I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a
laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood.

Narrow-minded? I have some experience with epoxy too, and I wonder what
makes you so self assured about epoxy not being waterproof.

I am a boat builder, wooden boats at that. And please read Pauls post
above, please.

As far as
'goo's' go, you will have a hard time finding one more waterproof than
epoxy.

And to suggest I said anything different would be innacurate at best.
Although there are many out there I have not used, so I won't guess

Of course everything relative. Glass or steel will be more waterproof
than epoxy, but it is waterproof enough to use it in woodcore boats or
stitch-and-glue boats to make them last for a very long time.

Waterproof "enough". Now you are starting to understand. But maybe not
for the guy who wants to use it to seal a bamboo mast, where is where
this discussion started.


For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy
won't move with it. How do you engineer that?

Epoxy moves just fine in joints.

It might work with massive wood joints, if the cross-sections are
relatively small.

Not going to take on this one, I don't have the time or inclination.
But trust me, there is much more to that story.

I works better when glueing plywood. The joints last
longest in boats that are designed to be build using epoxy throughout.

Or allow for escape of aquired (not built on wet wood) moisture and
finish with something like paint. And if I am understanding your
assumptions, encapsulated boats should last forever, and they don't.

Do you build such boats?

I do, professionally, have for decades.


In fact it is much more pliable than
polyester,

Cured epoxy can vary in flexibility, depending on the type of hardener
you use. Not every combination works, if you want flexibility.

So you are telling me to use the right mixes for the job. ok I will

Comparing epoxy and polyester when talking about gluing is useless.
Polyester resin sucks as a glue for wood.

I never said anything like that. I said " I use epoxy as an anhesive
and sometimes as a laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood". Are
you my new troll? Rehtorical question, don't bother.


please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about
boats.

Maybe I'm here to teach you about epoxy...

Well if elaborating on my posts and making up assertions you wish I
made is teaching, consider me a disgrunteled student.

--
Lodewijk

Apologies to those who suffered through this all.
JW

On 11 Jul 2007 21:08:43 GMT, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:

schreef in
oups.com

On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:

I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use
epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities
of epoxy. I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer
your work if you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're
not knowledgeable enough.

You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about
me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my
post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of
just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid...

There's not all that much content in your post.

Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering.
I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood
and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities.

For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't
move with it. How do you engineer that?

Well, I have seen a large number of boats built of wood and epoxy -
strip planked, cold molded and duracore composite all come to mind.
These boats are all made of wood and epoxy and seem to have no
problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content.





Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Bruce schreef in


On 11 Jul 2007 21:08:43 GMT, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:

For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy
won't move with it. How do you engineer that?

Well, I have seen a large number of boats built of wood and epoxy -
strip planked, cold molded and duracore composite all come to mind.
These boats are all made of wood and epoxy and seem to have no
problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content.

You don't have to convince me.

I have seen those boats too. And you and I know why these boats have no
problems with dimensional changes due to moisture content.
The moisture content does not change (enough) to crate problems, once the
wood is sealed from external moisture.
Which seems to prove that epoxy is waterproof enough for this purpose.

Practically spoken, epoxy is waterproof.

--
Lodewijk