On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:16:46 -0700, Bill
wrote:

On Jul 6, 2:37 am, Bruce wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:43:30 -0700, Bill





wrote:
On Jul 5, 5:58 pm, Bruce wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:20:39 -0700, Bill

wrote:
Well, sorry you are so defensive. The reason I care is this is a
builders group, and I am a builder. You came here for help (unless you
are just dreaming and bragging) and I thought I was helping. Screw you
though, I won't make that mistake again. I can't imagine coming to
someone for help, then turning into an ahole when you hear something
you don't want to hear or address, but that's just me.

I posted an update of my build for all the people that might be
interested and I immediately get replies of 'why would you do that,
that wont ever work and it's not a good idea' from people that have
never tried it before. The responses I got from you and Bruce were
very harsh and from people that have not even stated any experience
with this material. In my experience when two people interested in
building something are talking a project it is more constructive than
that. You ask questions if you don't know and make polite
suggestions, you don't say things like it could never be a permanent
solution, if you haven't tried it. You don't jump all over someone
that has been planning or many months after thingkin about it for five
minutes. Sorry if I seem a bit defensive but I came here to share and
post a little something to an otherwise low active group and I get
attacked by several people that think they know everything. Next time
you try to help someone maybe you could be polite about it. That goes
for Bruce even more, just because you never did it doesn't mean it
can't be done.

I rather resent your statement "from people that have
never tried it before" as I've been building boats since I was 12
years old - more then sixty years ago and I have attempted to use
bamboo for a number of purposes ranging from masts to handles for boat
hooks and found that contrary to appearances it was never as effective
as some other common material. I might also mention that I am a
mechanical engineer so I do have some familiarity with strengths of
various materials.

I believe I stated that it is your boat, with the implication that you
could and would do as you wanted.

So, enlighten me. Would you suggest I do the next time someone starts
to explain how they are going to go to something that I have tried and
found to be a totally unsatisfactory solution to the problem? Should I
walk away snickering under my breath, "friggin idjet" or should I try
to tell the guy that it might not work.

You tell me that you are going to buy a piece of bamboo (that if you
do not store very carefully will warp like crazy) split it lengthwise
and carve out the webs; paint it with epoxy; glue it back together and
then sheath it with 200 oz. glass; and that you have been thinking
about this for years -- have you ever given thought to the fact that
if you were to build a foam cored ,glass coated mast, similar to those
used on wind surfers it would be (1) stronger and (2) easier to build?

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

Bruce, I didn't know you had done it but I got the impression that you
were another usenet idiot that likes to tell people what to do without
having ever tried it since you didn't state that you have done this
before. I didn't mean to offend you but posting to newsgroups in the
past has occasionally brought these people to me and it really bothers
me.I apologize if that is not you or your intention. As for the
thought of a foam cored fiberglass mast, yes I have thought of it
along with aluminum but ultimately I want the boat to be all wood and
rope appearance, as much as possible. I know treating the bamboo is
more work but I am doing a lot of things that are more work just to
get the boat I really want. I am planning on making my own rope
stropped blocks as well. They will be bigger and take a lot more time
but I think it will give a better appearance. The sheaves will be
bronze but little else will be made of anything other than wood, rope
or clear fiberglass. Maybe this will clear things up and bring the
peace back to RBB.

Bill

Re Rope stropped blocks:

I'm not being sarcastic here but if you are really capable of building
authentic rope stropped blocks with decent bearings then, for God's
sake, slip an advertisement into "Wooden Boat", or one of the other
vintage boat magazines as real authentic wooden blocks command a very
good price. In fact there was an article in "Practical Boat,Owner", a
British boating magazine, some years back about a chap that was
building a wood boat and couldn't locate any authentic wooden blocks
so started making some. He soon found that he could sell every one he
could make amd started a one man factory to make them -- the article
never said whether he finished his boat or not....

Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have actually thought of that. I wanted to finish my boat first
before taking on any extra commitments like that. I also wanted to
make them and use them a lot before selling anything to other people.
I am sure there will be a little trial and error here. The few places
I saw that sold them got very high prices and had long wait times for
orders. If mine turn out well enough I may sell a few.......but after
I finish the boat.

Do a bit of research before you start building blocks. A "proper"
wooden block actually has a bearing, some as sophisticated as roller
bearings, between the sheave and the pin.

By the way, I did a quick Google and a simple stropped block was
selling for something like 27 Pounds Sterling PLUS 10 pounds tax.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Bruce wrote:
More about Bamboo. Some years back there were a number of commercial
buildings, mainly in the countryside, that used bamboo in place of
re-bar. My brother in law build a small warehouse using it. The
warehouse is still standing and in use today but whether that is
because bamboo makes good re-bar or blind luck I cannot say.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)


More FWIW stuff?

Thomas A Edison's swimming pool was made the same way - using
bamboo for re-bar.

Still water tight.

Whether that is because bamboo makes good re-bar or blind luck
I cannot say.


Richard

schreef in
oups.com

Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.

You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not waterproof,
but I have always lived under the impression that it is not only waterproof
but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy, that is.

This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an osmosis-barrier on
new polyester boats, for instance. It is also the justification of the
techniques the Gougeon brothers have been promoting for ages.

--
Lodewijk

On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef groups.com

Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.

You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not waterproof,
but I have always lived under the impression that it is not only waterproof
but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy, that is.

I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in
lab conditions. Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the
most hyped epoxy, let water in. The key however is to engineer with
that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than
in.


This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an osmosis-barrier on
new polyester boats, for instance.

Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats
soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to
the laminate itself. But I am more of a wooden boat guy.

It is also the justification of the
techniques the Gougeon brothers have been promoting for ages.

God bless the Gougeon Bros indeed, they have moved the process along
for sure, but they still sell goo!

--
Lodewijk

Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down
yet. Have a great day and go build a boat!

wrote:

On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:


schreef groups.com



Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.


You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not waterproof,
but I have always lived under the impression that it is not only waterproof
but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy, that is.



I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in
lab conditions. Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the
most hyped epoxy, let water in. The key however is to engineer with
that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than
in.



This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an osmosis-barrier on
new polyester boats, for instance.



Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats
soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to
the laminate itself. But I am more of a wooden boat guy.



It is also the justification of the
techniques the Gougeon brothers have been promoting for ages.



God bless the Gougeon Bros indeed, they have moved the process along
for sure, but they still sell goo!


--
Lodewijk



Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down
yet. Have a great day and go build a boat!



-------------------------------------------

polyester resin (fiberglass resin) is rather porous, which is why many
hulls develop blisters. The simple fix is to coat them / waterproof then
with a layer of epoxy which is much less porous than polyester resin.

is epoxy waterproof. consider your skin. you don't leak when you go
swimming (pls don't pee in the pool!) but technically our skin passes
lots of fluids. FYI

paul oman - progressive epoxy polymers inc

schreef in
ps.com

On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef
groups.com

Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.

You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not
waterproof, but I have always lived under the impression that it is
not only waterproof but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy,
that is.

I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in
lab conditions.

You may not use it in lab-conditions, but I am sure that you use measured
amounts of resin and hardener. Quite a different story from polyester,
where the amount of catalyst used is much less critical.

Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the
most hyped epoxy, let water in.

If you are that convinced that it lets water in, I wonder why and how you
use it al all.

The key however is to engineer with
that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than
in.

That is right, of course. Don't use it on wet wood. Preferably, don't use
it on massive wood of large sections.

This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an
osmosis-barrier on new polyester boats, for instance.

Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats
soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to
the laminate itself.

Maybe you have not seen enough polyester boats.
Osmosis (blistering of the gelcoat and sometimes of the laminate itself)
is a pretty common illness to polyester boats. It does not necessarily
mean that a boat is up for the scrapyard, but it scares the hell out of
many polyester boat-owners, allright.

But I am more of a wooden boat guy.

That figures.

Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down
yet.

I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use epoxy
and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities of epoxy.
I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer your work if
you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're not
knowledgeable enough.

--
Lodewijk

On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef oups.com





On Jul 7, 6:43 am, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef
groups.com

Why would it not absorb water? Epoxy is not water proof, water
resistant yes, proof, no.

You make it sound as if epoxy is some sort of grease.

I don't now how you arrive at the conclusion that epoxy is not
waterproof, but I have always lived under the impression that it is
not only waterproof but even fairly vapour-proof. Solvent-free epoxy,
that is.

I have worked with it enough to know that it is usually not used in
lab conditions.

You may not use it in lab-conditions, but I am sure that you use measured
amounts of resin and hardener. Quite a different story from polyester,
where the amount of catalyst used is much less critical.

Weather, sun, stress, and goblins will make even the
most hyped epoxy, let water in.

If you are that convinced that it lets water in, I wonder why and how you
use it al all.

The key however is to engineer with
that in mind. Remember it is much harder for moisture to get out, than
in.

That is right, of course. Don't use it on wet wood. Preferably, don't use
it on massive wood of large sections.

This quality is one of the reasons epoxy is used as an
osmosis-barrier on new polyester boats, for instance.

Hummmm. sounds like a gimick to me. I have not seen a lot of boats
soaked by osmosis through the hull without some kind of disruption to
the laminate itself.

Maybe you have not seen enough polyester boats.
Osmosis (blistering of the gelcoat and sometimes of the laminate itself)
is a pretty common illness to polyester boats. It does not necessarily
mean that a boat is up for the scrapyard, but it scares the hell out of
many polyester boat-owners, allright.

But I am more of a wooden boat guy.

That figures.

Hey, I could be wrong here, but my view of this has not let me down
yet.

I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use epoxy
and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities of epoxy.
I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer your work if
you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're not
knowledgeable enough.

--
Lodewijk- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about
me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my
post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of
just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid...

schreef in
ups.com

On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:

I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use
epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities
of epoxy. I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer
your work if you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're
not knowledgeable enough.

You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about
me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my
post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of
just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid...

There's not all that much content in your post.

Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering.
I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood
and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities.

For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't
move with it. How do you engineer that?

--
Lodewijk

On Jul 11, 5:08 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
schreef roups.com

On Jul 11, 4:21 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:
I'm sorry to say, but you ARE wrong. It is almost impossible to use
epoxy and wood together without depending on the waterproof qualities
of epoxy. I wonder what you have used it for and how you engineer
your work if you're so sure it leaks.

Have a great day and go build a boat!

Sure. You go build a heavy wooden boat. But don't use epoxy. You're
not knowledgeable enough.
You don't know what you don't know. You certainly know nothing about
me and my experience. Next time however it would help if your read my
post and Pauls (epoxy expert, retailer) post for content, instead of
just trying to feed your ego with ignorant insults. Later kid...

There's not all that much content in your post.

Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering.
I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use wood
and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof qualities.

Why so narrow minded. I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a
laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood.

For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy won't
move with it. How do you engineer that?

Epoxy moves just fine in joints. In fact it is much more pliable than
polyester, please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about
boats.

--
Lodewijk

schreef in
ps.com

On Jul 11, 5:08 pm, Lodewijk Stegman
wrote:

There's not all that much content in your post.

Maybe you should point out your experiences and your engineering.
I meant what I said when I stated that it's almost impossible to use
wood and epoxy together if you don't rely on it's waterproof
qualities.

Why so narrow minded. I use epoxy as an anhesive and sometimes as a
laminating resin, I use paint to protect wood.

Narrow-minded? I have some experience with epoxy too, and I wonder what
makes you so self assured about epoxy not being waterproof. As far as
'goo's' go, you will have a hard time finding one more waterproof than
epoxy.
Of course everything relative. Glass or steel will be more waterproof
than epoxy, but it is waterproof enough to use it in woodcore boats or
stitch-and-glue boats to make them last for a very long time.

For instance: wood shrinks and swells with changing humidity. Epoxy
won't move with it. How do you engineer that?

Epoxy moves just fine in joints.

It might work with massive wood joints, if the cross-sections are
relatively small. I works better when glueing plywood. The joints last
longest in boats that are designed to be build using epoxy throughout.
Do you build such boats?

In fact it is much more pliable than
polyester,

Cured epoxy can vary in flexibility, depending on the type of hardener
you use. Not every combination works, if you want flexibility.
Comparing epoxy and polyester when talking about gluing is useless.
Polyester resin sucks as a glue for wood.

please leave me alone now. I am not here to teach you about
boats.

Maybe I'm here to teach you about epoxy...

--
Lodewijk