Hi

"Drew Dalgleish" skrev i en meddelelse
...
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:28:17 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:

Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

Now where I come from, 5 meter blueprint quality , greyscale print cost
round 10 £ or round 3 $ each meter running roll. -------- Have any of you
guy's ever just seriously checked what the cheapest endless print quality
acturly cost ?

Now I paied these money here in Dk. and ofcaurse I could have paied more if
I didn't ask around to find the cheapest Oce. profesional printworks , and
sure some print shops would rather sell the most expensive quality , but
this is just my experience ,that prices on blueprint black/white on 90 g.
paper is almost cheaper than you pay for the emty paper.
You proberly say that this is aswell to learn the art of lofting , but realy
you learn that just as well ,and add a lot of accurancy that in the end will
eliminiate a lot of foults, by typing in the cooerdinates in the table of
offsets into a simple CAD program.
What I mean is, that you can also se it that way that you realy get to know
the computer in front your face , by using it for storing the work , that
othervies soon get lost on a piece of paper ------- guess you know that
paper expand and schrink in air...........
So my point is, that to save money, to get a knowleage and skills about your
computer , to ensure that what you design is what you end up building , and
to make sure you have an original lofting , the computer is acturly better,
than the methods used for the past centuries.
I know the computer have a hard time getting accepted in these terms, realy
it is not enough for somone to go out and prove his words , even he made 20
boats from these new methods, and even his clients is in front of a computer
screen.
Now a few in this fora maby wonder why this Cyber-Boat guy don't offer these
services, but a few years ago what happened was, that I made agreament with
a printshop that would deliver for those cheap prices, and some guy wanted
to buy the whole lot of Cyber-Boat plans -------- ordered maby 500 meter
full-scale drawings and had them posted to england. This guy never payed
and even the arangement was clear as I did not earn on this , then this
action made sure that firm would not deal with me.
Still I do understand that if somone don't want new methods and smart new
way's to build . I mean you can be glad that you are not a skilled
autodidact who perform both beautifull boats and exiting architecture, as
then you would know the taste when somone say , who do you think you are ,do
you think you are more clever than us, ------- Now many amature designers
proberly have your cosy job and nice house and the amature drawings proberly
are a nice time killer, -------- but for the once that acturly develob new
methods and need the bread for his family, there are nothing as harmfull, as
somone that say "I can do that to" , or if he can not start a dirt campain
proving their true skills.

We been here before havn't we ? ------- still this time I can announce that
Cyber-Boat old site don't exist anymore. The original old homepage is
deleted and what's left of Cyber-Boat is this ;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

So this is about saving money ?

P.C.

A word of caution: Be careful about using someone elses boat as a
template or getting offsets from someone elses plans. Generally, plans
are sold to the buyer with the agreement to make one boat and not share
the plans or info in them with anyone else.



P.C. wrote:
Hi

"Drew Dalgleish" skrev i en meddelelse
...

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:28:17 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:


Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

The good thing about a full size lofting is that when you are done, you
can easily "lift" patterns for each part directly from the lofting.
Also, lofting allows the builder to correct the designer's mistakes
before cutting wood. Happens all the time.
Plus, the lofting gives the builder a better concept for how the boat
"feels". Much better than a little drawing can or even a cad drafted
drawing. Unfortunatlely people unaccustomed to creating large drawings
seem to shy away from it.
If I was building a little canoe though, a minor mistake in the lofting
is not a big deal. I'd draw horizontal water lines, then plot the
section molds directly from the table of offsets. Then I'd draw the
sections out and tranfer the lines to the material (particle board) to
cut. Success in doing this will depend on whether the table of offsets
is lofted to the inside of the planking or to the outside as is
sometimes the case. Also, different designers work to different
tolerances and some tables of offsets are not very accurate or contain
too few sections to have the plotted section lines come out fair when
set up.
I've built boats from different designers and the accuracy of the
original design goes a long way toward getting a boat that resembles
what the designer had in mind.
Assuming your table of offsets are drawn to the inside of the planking,
here is what I'd do.

1. draw a horizontal line the width of the boat representing the
baseline in the lofting.
2. Erect a perpendicular line that intersects the baseline representing
the center of the boat.
3. Draw the waterlines relative to and parallel to the baseline.
4. Plot points along the waterlines based on the table of offsets.For
instance, if the sheer in the plan view for the center section at water
line 8", is 1-6-0, put a dot on the appropriate waterline one foot six
inches from the center line.
5. draw a line through each point to establish the cut line for the
section. Use a flexible batten and finish nails to hold it the batten in
place so the line goes through each point. A 1/8 x 1/2 inch thick piece
of plexiglas 36 inches long makes a good batten.
5. Continue plotting each section but do only one half of each. Either
the right or the left. Usually the foward sections are on the left and
the aft sections are on the right.
6. Do each section and figure out how you will set up the sections on
the strong back so you can also mark the bottom of the section mold
where it connects to the strong back. Various methods are used.
7. You now have a full size pattern of each section of the canoe and can
transfer the lines to particle board and cut them out.
Extreme accuracy will help in producing a fair hull as will placing the
section molds exactly where they need to be on the strongback.

If the boat is lofted to the outside of the planking, you will have to
loft the boat and subtract the planking to establish the sections. A lot
of work. That is what you buy when you purchase a design.



sebastian wrote:
hi im planning on building a canoe. Specifically, I would like to
build the 16 foot 'prospector' from moore's 'canoecraft' book, but the
design is in the form of a lofting table.

I know there are many books out there on lofting, but i have found
them to be more convoluted and complex than i need for a simple little
symmetrical canoe. The full size plans are available for purchase,
but I would I like learn how to loft. Can anynoe provide a brief
tutorial on how to loft canoe plans or maybe provide links to any
known web pages which *clearly* and as simply as possible methodically
describe how to loft -ideally canoes and specifically from the tables
in canoecraft- or other small simple boats?

Hi

"steveJ" skrev i en meddelelse
...

If the boat is lofted to the outside of the planking, you will have to
loft the boat and subtract the planking to establish the sections. A lot
of work. That is what you buy when you purchase a design.


Well , ----- I could not resist that one , you se with most CAD programs
there are an offset function. This produce exactly paralell lines with the
exact distance -- or as you ask ,the exact plank thickness on outside the
section lines . Point out the section line and type in the offset distance
and what side of the original line ,and it's there.
P.C.

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:03:32 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:

Hi

"Drew Dalgleish" skrev i en meddelelse
...
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:28:17 +0200, "P.C."
wrote:

Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

Now where I come from, 5 meter blueprint quality , greyscale print cost
round 10 £ or round 3 $ each meter running roll. -------- Have any of you
guy's ever just seriously checked what the cheapest endless print quality
acturly cost ?

Now I paied these money here in Dk. and ofcaurse I could have paied more if
I didn't ask around to find the cheapest Oce. profesional printworks , and
sure some print shops would rather sell the most expensive quality , but
this is just my experience ,that prices on blueprint black/white on 90 g.
paper is almost cheaper than you pay for the emty paper.
You proberly say that this is aswell to learn the art of lofting , but realy
you learn that just as well ,and add a lot of accurancy that in the end will
eliminiate a lot of foults, by typing in the cooerdinates in the table of
offsets into a simple CAD program.
What I mean is, that you can also se it that way that you realy get to know
the computer in front your face , by using it for storing the work , that
othervies soon get lost on a piece of paper ------- guess you know that
paper expand and schrink in air...........
So my point is, that to save money, to get a knowleage and skills about your
computer , to ensure that what you design is what you end up building , and
to make sure you have an original lofting , the computer is acturly better,
than the methods used for the past centuries.
I know the computer have a hard time getting accepted in these terms, realy
it is not enough for somone to go out and prove his words , even he made 20
boats from these new methods, and even his clients is in front of a computer
screen.
Now a few in this fora maby wonder why this Cyber-Boat guy don't offer these
services, but a few years ago what happened was, that I made agreament with
a printshop that would deliver for those cheap prices, and some guy wanted
to buy the whole lot of Cyber-Boat plans -------- ordered maby 500 meter
full-scale drawings and had them posted to england. This guy never payed
and even the arangement was clear as I did not earn on this , then this
action made sure that firm would not deal with me.
Still I do understand that if somone don't want new methods and smart new
way's to build . I mean you can be glad that you are not a skilled
autodidact who perform both beautifull boats and exiting architecture, as
then you would know the taste when somone say , who do you think you are ,do
you think you are more clever than us, ------- Now many amature designers
proberly have your cosy job and nice house and the amature drawings proberly
are a nice time killer, -------- but for the once that acturly develob new
methods and need the bread for his family, there are nothing as harmfull, as
somone that say "I can do that to" , or if he can not start a dirt campain
proving their true skills.

We been here before havn't we ? ------- still this time I can announce that
Cyber-Boat old site don't exist anymore. The original old homepage is
deleted and what's left of Cyber-Boat is this ;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/

So this is about saving money ?

P.C.


Well maybe it's about saving money or maybe the OP just wants to learn
how to loft. All the stations can be drawn on one sheet of paper less
than a metre square so I don't think that's going to add much to the
cost

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:49:52 GMT, Matt Langenfeld
wrote:

A word of caution: Be careful about using someone elses boat as a
template or getting offsets from someone elses plans. Generally, plans
are sold to the buyer with the agreement to make one boat and not share
the plans or info in them with anyone else.

Generally that is true but the OP paid for the offset table when he
bought the canoecraft book. The book includes offsets for a bunch of
different canoes most of them were not designed by the author but are
from lines taken off other boats. The Chestnut Prospector has to be
one of the most copied boats ever

Yes but the OP is trying to save $75? by doing it himself. I'd
probably do the same thing and if he wants to come to southern ontario
he's welcome to take tracings from my stations.

Drew Dalgleish ) writes:

Generally that is true but the OP paid for the offset table when he
bought the canoecraft book. The book includes offsets for a bunch of
different canoes most of them were not designed by the author but are
from lines taken off other boats. The Chestnut Prospector has to be
one of the most copied boats ever

The prospectopr offsets in Moore's book were taken by Bill Mason off
his Chestnut Prospector, presumably before it had been all banged out
of shape. He is probably the only film maker who would use a beat up old
canvas canoe in a canoe instruction film. Truth in film making. Reality
film.

--
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William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
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Very true, but to purchase a cad program and plotter might be a little
too much expense to build a little canoe.

P.C. wrote:
Hi

"steveJ" skrev i en meddelelse
...

If the boat is lofted to the outside of the planking, you will have to
loft the boat and subtract the planking to establish the sections. A lot
of work. That is what you buy when you purchase a design.



Well , ----- I could not resist that one , you se with most CAD programs
there are an offset function. This produce exactly paralell lines with the
exact distance -- or as you ask ,the exact plank thickness on outside the
section lines . Point out the section line and type in the offset distance
and what side of the original line ,and it's there.
P.C.

With all due respect, I'm not sure the OP is getting his question answered. I'm in the same "boat"...I have Moore's book, and I'm trying to figure out how to create the full-sized templates used to trace out the forms to build any one of his canoes or kayaks. (The Hiawatha is the canoe I want to build.)

Moore presents two tables, a table of heights and a table of half-breadths, with columns for each station and rows labeled "sheer" and "butt 2"", "butt 4"", etc., in the table of heights, and rows labeled "sheer" and "WL 2"", "WL 4"", etc. in the table of half-breadths.

To an experienced builder it's probably obvious what these terms mean and the process of transferring this data to a full-size grid sheet is probably straightforward. To me (and presumably to the OP) these tables are a little mystifying. I am guessing it would probably be simpler to just buy the $85 plans a skip this step...but if anyone can offer a step-by-step method for transferring the data supplied in the tables, to a sheet of paper using pins and a batten, it would be greatly appreciated! It would be helpful if the explanation defined the terms butt, profile, sheer, WL, and baseline as depicted in the drawings.

The problem I have with Morre's offsets is that he copied many of his offsets off of existing craft that he neither drew or produced. Only about half of the offsets were copyrighted in the original books, The earlier versions of his book explained this very clearly and even showed you at length how to accomplish this. Then, in later versions of his book these sections were left out and several drawings were redrawn and copyrighted as his own designs.