A friend's wife (native of Panama) told me her kids had asked why everything
was made in China, and she had told them that it was because people couldn't
afford things made in the US.
True, sadly true.
If we used a little foresight to protect our markets like other countries,
goods produced in the US would still be high but so would wages, and
American workers would be able to afford $40 jeans.
Instead we buy $14 jeans at Walmart. Can't buy electricity at Walmart. Don't
pay house payments to Walmart.
Our money goes to China and it's used to build China's military might.
America's average income is down .6% and corporate profits are up 60%. Do
the math.
I don't think it's a slide, more of a plummet. All empires fall.
MMC
"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

1. Andrew's Canadian underlayment did not come from China. If he bought it
at Rona it is meranti and came from south Asia somewhere. If he bought it
at Home Depot is is virola and came from Brazil. I've used both and
nothing
else on all 4 of my small boats with no complaints given the low price and
light weight. I'd rather pay $13 a sheet for underlayment than $50 for
marine and do a bit of maintnenace. If you fill the voids and seal the
edges lauan or meranti lasts reasonably well for a few years without
sheathing in resin-saturated fibreglass, or just coating with resin alone.
If you watn a boat to pass on to your grandchildren, use marine ply.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
Clinton was up for re-election and imposed quotas. Extortionist labour
unions scuttled the WTO negotations and kept people in lower wage countrys
from getting work. North Amercian unions don't give a damn about working
conditions in China. It's just a propaganda ploy to keep wages high in
North America. It's not a matter of wages in other countries going up but
of wages in North Amercia and Europe coming down. We will see unions
fighting dirty so their members can drive around in SUV's and get free CAT
scans whenever they fell like it, but eventually wages will come down,
even if it's just a matter of imporing all goods and leaving the low pay
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build
up their membership again.

As for China it is going through what Japan went through after WWII when
they started selling cheap goods abroad to test markets. Older
boatbuilders will remember when "made in japan" meant popor quality. No
more. Now "Made in USA" means poor quality compared to "Made in Japan".
Once the Japanese established markets offshore their economy took off for
decades until they let it heat up too much and the rapid rate of growth
eventually leveled off when their economy matured, leaving them with a
mountain of insupporatble debt.

All of which has little to do with boatbuilding outside of the price of
plywood and cheap Pacific knockoff's of popular big boat designs..

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before
you judge it.

And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we
agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor. Unions
are disruptive to free enterprise, increase cost of goods sold, cost of
manufacturing, etcetera. In today's world of litigation, there is no need
for labor unions. They are maintained by the corrupt few who don't have our
best interests in mind.

We're in a world market and I'm not complaining. The pendulum swings both
ways. Our average incomes will go down for awhile, but they'll come back up
....at least for those who are awake enough to be able to work within the
system to their own advantage. That's always been the rule. You have to be
willing to adapt and change with the tides. If not, then you take what you
get and have no reason to complain. May the best man (woman, country,
region) win.

Brian D



"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

1. Andrew's Canadian underlayment did not come from China. If he bought it
at Rona it is meranti and came from south Asia somewhere. If he bought it
at Home Depot is is virola and came from Brazil. I've used both and
nothing
else on all 4 of my small boats with no complaints given the low price and
light weight. I'd rather pay $13 a sheet for underlayment than $50 for
marine and do a bit of maintnenace. If you fill the voids and seal the
edges lauan or meranti lasts reasonably well for a few years without
sheathing in resin-saturated fibreglass, or just coating with resin alone.
If you watn a boat to pass on to your grandchildren, use marine ply.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
Clinton was up for re-election and imposed quotas. Extortionist labour
unions scuttled the WTO negotations and kept people in lower wage countrys
from getting work. North Amercian unions don't give a damn about working
conditions in China. It's just a propaganda ploy to keep wages high in
North America. It's not a matter of wages in other countries going up but
of wages in North Amercia and Europe coming down. We will see unions
fighting dirty so their members can drive around in SUV's and get free CAT
scans whenever they fell like it, but eventually wages will come down,
even if it's just a matter of imporing all goods and leaving the low pay
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build
up their membership again.

As for China it is going through what Japan went through after WWII when
they started selling cheap goods abroad to test markets. Older
boatbuilders will remember when "made in japan" meant popor quality. No
more. Now "Made in USA" means poor quality compared to "Made in Japan".
Once the Japanese established markets offshore their economy took off for
decades until they let it heat up too much and the rapid rate of growth
eventually leveled off when their economy matured, leaving them with a
mountain of insupporatble debt.

All of which has little to do with boatbuilding outside of the price of
plywood and cheap Pacific knockoff's of popular big boat designs..

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

2. "Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down......."

Mr. Watt , you apparently opine that you are over paid.

On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:42 -0700, "Brian D"
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

How on earth do you get "socialist" out of what is written by Mr Watt?

Apart from that, try arguing the point, without the invective and
labelling.

Many lands that "experience a truly free capitalist society where
innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their
life's dreams" also causes extreme poverty for those unable, for many
reasons often beyond their control, or unwilling because of their
moral outlook, to take whatever they can whenever they can from the
purse.

Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before
you judge it.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
.............
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to build
up their membership again.

************************************************** ****************************************
Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are
not something, you probably are.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

"Brian D" ) writes:
Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before
you judge it.

I've been fighting Canadian socialism for most of my adult life.


And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we
agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor.

Up here that's mostly PUBLIC SECTOR UNION labour, and with 18% of the
Ontario workforce in the public sector they command a lot of votes. It's
what comes from socialism, ie public ownership, and public control of
private property. Unlike the US we do not have private property protection
in our constitution.

I hope the US pulls through. You've been carrying the cost of global peace
for quite a while. Everyone expects the Yanks, among other things, to
patrol the seas and oceans and pay the cost. Before them it was the Brits
who also charted the seas and oceans at public expense for future
generations of boatbuilders. But when the Brits asked the Yanks to help pay
the cost the Yanks got ****ed of and revolted. The Yanks have been
smarter, paying for foreign goods in US dollars and them devaluing the
dollar.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Brian D a écrit :
Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before
you judge it.

And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight ...we
agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor. Unions
are disruptive to free enterprise, increase cost of goods sold, cost of
manufacturing, etcetera. In today's world of litigation, there is no need
for labor unions. They are maintained by the corrupt few who don't have our
best interests in mind.

We're in a world market and I'm not complaining. The pendulum swings both
ways. Our average incomes will go down for awhile, but they'll come back up
...at least for those who are awake enough to be able to work within the
system to their own advantage. That's always been the rule. You have to be
willing to adapt and change with the tides. If not, then you take what you
get and have no reason to complain. May the best man (woman, country,
region) win.

Brian D
You should watch again "roger and me" or "the big one" to have a clear
sight on the "life's dreams" of these american citizens..
Of course they are not part of the "happy few" that live the american
dream..

Same way I get it from your post. When someone has disdain for success and
then tries to rationalize it with rhetoric, then what can I say? Which
political system thinks like that? 'Bring down' those wages Watt says.
Why? Ever thought about increasing world-wide productivity, local markets
and those abroad? Where there are people and resources, there is room for a
who new economy. The US isn't the only place to produce products and to
sell them. China could do it all on their own if the Communist government
got out of the way. Squelch a free market in the name of 'fairness' or
'equalizing wages' or any other non-free, non-motivating artificial
philosophy and you're dead in the water ...doomed to be nothing more than
another philosophical failure.

When people from poor nations come to the US, their first question is "Where
are the poor people?". Yes, there are poor people here ...many in hopeless
situations, but it wasn't caused by capitalism. It's caused by drugs,
promiscuity, and lack of effort. It's a behavioral issue. I know that in
some environments that you'd have to be nearly super human to overcome the
culture/attitudes in order for you to succeed and that's very sad. That's
one of the factors that leads to these problems, but it's still a behavioral
problem. People have to believe in themselves and in their ability to
succeed, but in many areas that is asking a bit too much. I wish I had a
solution. I really do ...I'm not trying to be mean here, just objective.
And again, unless you live here, you are speaking from a vicarious
experience at most so don't get too bent out of shape on philosophies until
your country proves itself to be our equal.

If governments spent more time getting out of the way, then more people
would produce more and sell more and live better ...it's a deceptively
simple equation that we've proved works. If in a free society, people
choose to live on excuses instead of actions, then who are we to blame?

A friend of mine from India came here and went to college, graduating
without any school loans and with a good GPA. Under the agreement that this
person was constrained by, they were not allowed to work off campus. They
were not allowed to drive. In those conditions and without any financial
sponsor, this person succeeded because they chose to. People need to
understand the value in that, what places like the US provide ...the
opportunity to succeed if you are willing to make the effort. People here
have no excuses that cannot be overcome by their own free will.

And BTW, before you say something like "doing whatever they can from the
purse", how about if you say "they should be doing whatever they can by the
sweat of their brow and the innovations in their head" instead? Rather than
play the victim, shouldn't they choose to be the success? This is what this
country was built on, the attitude of choosing to succeed. There is much to
emulate nowadays, so why don't they?

Brian


"Old Nick" wrote in message
news:42532286.329671590@localhost...
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:32:42 -0700, "Brian D"
wrote something
......and in reply I say!:

How on earth do you get "socialist" out of what is written by Mr Watt?

Apart from that, try arguing the point, without the invective and
labelling.

Many lands that "experience a truly free capitalist society where
innovation and free market rule are what provide people with their
life's dreams" also causes extreme poverty for those unable, for many
reasons often beyond their control, or unwilling because of their
moral outlook, to take whatever they can whenever they can from the
purse.

Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it before
you judge it.

2. Labour costs in North America and Europe are out of sight and need to
come down. The whole object of the violent union demonstrations at the
Seattle WTO conferene was to try and impose quotas against lower cost
goods from countries where labour costs are lower. The US unions bussed
in
thousands of people to throw rocks at police officers. It worked because
............
retail jobs to locals, or the US ecomony will fail. Yes, the unions are
spreading malicious propaganda about "workers rights" overseas and about
job loses at home, because wages have been so good that North Amercian
unions have lost their reason for being and lost so many members they
are
at their lowest point in decades. They are trying to scare people to
build
up their membership again.

************************************************** ****************************************
Whenever you have to prove to yourself that you are
not something, you probably are.

Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/

Thanks. Hope I didn't come across too strongly. Now that I'm off my
"choose to succeed and do it in a free society" podium, I'll admit that the
US has gained much from it's economic and political strong-arming. That's
not so right ...better to play the ball than the field. I wish everyone had
a free government, free people, and a free market-driven capitalistic
society ...they'd be able to fight the strong-arming much more effectively.

Brian


"William R. Watt" wrote in message
...

"Brian D" ) writes:
Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it
before
you judge it.

I've been fighting Canadian socialism for most of my adult life.


And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight
...we
agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor.

Up here that's mostly PUBLIC SECTOR UNION labour, and with 18% of the
Ontario workforce in the public sector they command a lot of votes. It's
what comes from socialism, ie public ownership, and public control of
private property. Unlike the US we do not have private property protection
in our constitution.

I hope the US pulls through. You've been carrying the cost of global peace
for quite a while. Everyone expects the Yanks, among other things, to
patrol the seas and oceans and pay the cost. Before them it was the Brits
who also charted the seas and oceans at public expense for future
generations of boatbuilders. But when the Brits asked the Yanks to help
pay
the cost the Yanks got ****ed of and revolted. The Yanks have been
smarter, paying for foreign goods in US dollars and them devaluing the
dollar.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Sounds like you got a bad impression. I've lived all over this country and
I see people living the American Dream everywhere ...real life, not movies.
Those that choose to succeed anyway. Many are happy to live off the fat of
the government while others pay for it, or to continue in poverty. That's
their free choice. As mentioned in another email, in some regions of the
country it's hard to be raised in the environment that you were born into
and still have a positive attitude about yourself and what can be done, but
that does NOT mean that it can't be done. People break out of those
situations all the time. Hard? Hell yes, but POSSIBLE. Sure beats the
'NOT possible' you find in so many other places in this world. Nobody ever
gave me a nickel and my parents were broke (still are ...by their own
choices). I'm living the American Dream by my own effort, 100%. Big house,
over $100k salary, family, security ...and with no help from anybody other
than myself. Where there's a will, there's a way.

You prefer Europe? What do you have to come up with as a down payment for a
real house on a real piece of land? 50%? More? And how much does that
house cost? How long, at your current income and tax rate does it take to
save that much money? What is your current tax rate? Over 50%? That's not
success...


Brian



"Bateaubois" wrote in message
...
Brian D a écrit :
Spoken like a true Canadian socialist who's never experience a truly free
capitalist society where innovation and free market rule are what provide
people with their life's dreams. I would recommend that you try it
before you judge it.

And if you are going to spout off about labor, let's get this straight
...we agree. But you have to clarify your statement and say UNION labor.
Unions are disruptive to free enterprise, increase cost of goods sold,
cost of manufacturing, etcetera. In today's world of litigation, there
is no need for labor unions. They are maintained by the corrupt few who
don't have our best interests in mind.

We're in a world market and I'm not complaining. The pendulum swings
both ways. Our average incomes will go down for awhile, but they'll come
back up ...at least for those who are awake enough to be able to work
within the system to their own advantage. That's always been the rule.
You have to be willing to adapt and change with the tides. If not, then
you take what you get and have no reason to complain. May the best man
(woman, country, region) win.

Brian D
You should watch again "roger and me" or "the big one" to have a clear
sight on the "life's dreams" of these american citizens..
Of course they are not part of the "happy few" that live the american
dream..

You prefer Europe? What do you have to come up with as a down payment for a
real house on a real piece of land? 50%? More? And how much does that
house cost? How long, at your current income and tax rate does it take to
save that much money? What is your current tax rate? Over 50%? That's not
success...

Yes I do.. I have a 50K (Euros, 1.3US$) income, My wife has a 30K, I own
a lovely house among pinetrees on the riviera, etc.. AND I have social
security a 100%, Unemployment protection (57% on 3 years in case), Only
VAT on merchandises (no local sales taxes), and my tax rate is 19.61 %
(I paid it 2 days ago..).. not a penny more..
And I'm only an upper middle class man.. not a "happy few"...
Many people here earn that much and taxes are lowering from year to year
due to the willing of our goverment (It prefers to overtax foreign
companies ;-) I won't learn to a US citizen what protectionism is ;-) )
Of course there is poverty too, but the rate of people living under the
UNO minimal vital income is far lower than in the US..
Of course You may love your country which is your absolute right (I
should say is even almost a duty),as much as I love mine, but keep an
eye open, paradise is not your country neither is it mine.. ;-) All this
is propaganda stuff..

Cheers,
Phil.