"JimC" wrote in message
...


Charles Momsen wrote:
"jlrogers±³©" wrote in message
...

All my life I've "dreamed" about retiring on a boat and sailing from here
to there, as the spirit moves me. However, my only experience is some
lake sailing, a little Gulf of Mexico experience, and four years on a
destroyer in the navy. And, except for a couple of years in the 90's,
most of my sailing was done 35 years ago.

I have now retired and I signed up for a series of ASA lessons at a
school in Kemah, TX, just to bone up and get my feet wet, but haven't
started yet due to Ike.

My plan is to take the lessons, join a sailing club, and spend some time
afloat to see if the passion dissolves in the salt spray.

Assuming it doesn't, I will want to acquire a relatively inexpensive
cruiser for step 2. I.e., learning to live aboard, maintain the boat,
and sail alone with confidence.

At one time I owned a thirty footer, but never lived aboard, and most of
the maintenance was bought and paid for. I like all of the following,
but remember my experience is day sailing, for the most part, and I'm
completely ignorant of the requirements, stresses, and needs of the live
aboard.

Contessa
Westerly (Konsort)
Endeavour 32 Plan A
Cape Dory
Crealock (Pacific Seacraft)
Island Packet


Which brings me to my question: what boat would you recommend for the
live aboard trial? Something no older that say 1983, between 28 and 35',
a sloop, that could be bought for no more than $60,000.

--

jlrogers±³©

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is
the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt

"Those who would give up a little freedom to get a little security shall
soon have neither." Benjamin Franklin



Congratulations on your retirement. Rather than get the ideal boat
upfront, buy a lower cost "value" boat first. You'll probably make
mistakes at first (crashing into stuff, breaking things or doing
something that leaves a really big mark/gouge.) so get something you
could walk away from. Make your second boat count. Buy whatever is cheap
and popular in your area. You can easily resell it at a small loss and
learn so much without fear of real financial loss.


The previous suggestion (don't buy an "ideal boat" upfront) is a good one
IMO. If you intend to liveaboard, I would also suggest something a little
larger than 30 feet. I think your plan to charter various boats will give
you a good idea of what's involved and what type and size boat you may
prefer.

I'm also near Kemah, and I can verify that in this area you will find many
boats of all genries for far less than $60,000. (Try $15,000 - $30,000 for
30-35 ft. boats that would be ready to sail with minor cleanup or
upgrades.). Have it surveyed, of course. - IMO, in this price range the
condition of the boat is almost as important as the model/maker. And
although I agree that Sabres, Endeavours, Island Packets, Tartans,
Valiants, etc., are great boats, if you insist on getting one of these
"ideal" boats, you may end up paying twice as much as you would for other
boats of a the same size and condition that would be comfortable and that
you would also enjoy sailing. - It's your choice, of course.

Incidentally, my boat (a 26 ft. MacGregor) had no damage from the
hurricane, and you would be welcome to go out with me anytime this Fall.

Jim

Thank you. Just got back from Houston today, but didn't even try to get
down to the coast..figure they have enough problems without a bunch of
rubber neckers hanging out. Did have lunch with a guy who lives on Clear
Lake. He is down from 4 boats to one.

"Charles Momsen" wrote in message
...

Which brings me to my question: what boat would you recommend for the
live aboard trial? Something no older that say 1983, between 28 and 35',
a sloop, that could be bought for no more than $60,000.


Congratulations on your retirement. Rather than get the ideal boat
upfront, buy a lower cost "value" boat first. You'll probably make
mistakes at first (crashing into stuff, breaking things or doing something
that leaves a really big mark/gouge.) so get something you could walk away
from. Make your second boat count. Buy whatever is cheap and popular in
your area. You can easily resell it at a small loss and learn so much
without fear of real financial loss.


On Sept 25 the DJIA was at about 11,000.

Today, Nov 20 it sits below 8,000.

Down 27% in less than 2 months, down 43% from its high.

There are a lot of Americans pinching pennies today.

If you have the money, now is the time to start looking for a good value
boat.

You'll find Pacific Seacrafts (they stopped making the Dana again) and other
quality boats on the chopping block.

Great time to buy a Mitsubishi Evo too, no one else is and dealers are
willing to bargain.

Stores are virtually empty, resort areas barren, prices for goods, food and
fuel are dropping.

People are willing to work harder for less.

For $60K you can get your dream boat of a lifetime.

Go for it!

"jlrogers±³©" wrote in message
...
All my life I've "dreamed" about retiring on a boat and sailing from here
to there, as the spirit moves me. However, my only experience is some
lake sailing, a little Gulf of Mexico experience, and four years on a
destroyer in the navy. And, except for a couple of years in the 90's,
most of my sailing was done 35 years ago.

I have now retired and I signed up for a series of ASA lessons at a school
in Kemah, TX, just to bone up and get my feet wet, but haven't started yet
due to Ike.

Definitely the right place to start.


My plan is to take the lessons, join a sailing club, and spend some time
afloat to see if the passion dissolves in the salt spray.

Assuming it doesn't, I will want to acquire a relatively inexpensive
cruiser for step 2. I.e., learning to live aboard, maintain the boat, and
sail alone with confidence.

At one time I owned a thirty footer, but never lived aboard, and most of
the maintenance was bought and paid for. I like all of the following, but
remember my experience is day sailing, for the most part, and I'm
completely ignorant of the requirements, stresses, and needs of the live
aboard.

Contessa
Westerly (Konsort)
Endeavour 32 Plan A
Cape Dory
Crealock (Pacific Seacraft)
Island Packet


Which brings me to my question: what boat would you recommend for the
live aboard trial? Something no older that say 1983, between 28 and 35',
a sloop, that could be bought for no more than $60,000.

I think any of these and there are others that would fill the bill. The only
way to know what suits you and what won't is to sail various types.

In addition to your list, I'd suggest looking at Sabre (my bias), C&C,
Pearson, Tartan. Perhaps Ericson. There's a long list.

Remember, even a "turnkey" boat is going to need maintenance, upgrades for
your requirements, insurance, etc., so you have to include those ideas when
you make your choice about cost. You can spend $50K and have to put $10K to
it. Or, you can spend a lot less and put more to it over time.

The other thing I'll say is that a boat in the 30' range isn't really great
as a live-aboard. Sure, it's doable, but if you go up to the 35-36' range,
you'll be a heck of a lot more comfortable, and of course, maintenance,
upgrades, etc., will also cost more. You need to consider the size of your
living space, including convenience issues if you want to be relatively
comfortable. We're all used to living in houses/apts., which are a heck of a
lot bigger.

A couple of years ago when I was looking for my boat, I came across a
Pearson 365 that was in amazing shape. I didn't think about it carefully
enough and was outbid. I don't regret the Sabre for various practical and
important reasons, but the Pearson was a good deal, even at the asking
price. As I recall it was $28K.. something like that.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

jlrogers±³© wrote:
All my life I've "dreamed" about retiring on a boat and sailing from here to
there, as the spirit moves me. However, my only experience is some lake
sailing, a little Gulf of Mexico experience, and four years on a destroyer
in the navy. *And, except for a couple of years in the 90's, most of my
sailing was done 35 years ago.


Actually, the Navy experience can be valuable. For example, the way
the Navy handles dock lines is far better than the way most cruisers
do. 'Dipping the eye' and apply chafe gear are just two examples.


I have now retired and I signed up for a series of ASA lessons at a school
in Kemah, TX, just to bone up and get my feet wet, but haven't started yet
due to Ike.

My plan is to take the lessons, join a sailing club, and spend some time
afloat to see if the passion dissolves in the salt spray.


That's an excellent plan, it can be fun too. You may find a berth
crewing on a passage or delivery; best way to see if you really like
it.

Assuming it doesn't, I will want to acquire a relatively inexpensive cruiser
for step 2. *I.e., learning to live aboard, maintain the boat, and sail
alone with confidence.


Singlehanding is over rated IMHO.



Contessa
Westerly (Konsort)
Endeavour 32 Plan A
Cape Dory
Crealock (Pacific Seacraft)
Island Packet


Any of those would be great boats *if* properly equipped & maintained.
The Cape Dory will be the least roomy, the Endeavor the most roomy.
The Crealock would be my pick for heavy weather sailing but then I'd
prefer to avoid bad weather offshore.

Don't underestimate the importance of draft. If you have a deep keel,
you will be locked out of many desirable places on the South East
coast. My preference is about 4' draft or less, but that will
necessitate either a centerboard (which is a maintenance item) or
severely compromising windward ability.

Another caveat- if you're looking into an older boat, the level of
maintenance & upgraded equipment will be far more important than the
brand name stamped on the coaming. It would be easy to spend $60k
outiftting a small cruising boat... and not necessarily getting any
"fancy stuff."

Island Packets are great boats... roomy, well built, good sailing
characteristics...
Cape Dories are built like tanks and good sea boats too. No core
worries!
Contessa 32 is a legendary boat


Which brings me to my question: *what boat would you recommend for the live
aboard trial? *Something no older that say 1983, between 28 and 35', a
sloop, that could be bought for no more than $60,000.


Aw heck, you can buy several for that price... the question is, what
will you have in it by the time you're satisfied with the condition &
equipment?

My suggestions-
-Consider a larger range of boats. There is no reason why a
singlehander could not handle & maintain a 35-footer as well as a 30
footer.
-Don't get hung up on "type of boat" until you have been actively
sailing on at least a dozen different ones (and you'll rack up
underway miles on different boats faster than you think, once you get
started). Instead, consider characteristics & features that you like
and that 'work for you.' It's a very personal choice.

As for boats....
Morgan 30 & Morgan 34
Soverel 30 (older model)
S2
Albin
Rival
Moody

Maybe a bit to racy, but it's an S&S ....guaranteed classic!
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1836713

While you're in Kemah, take a look at this one
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1930404

CS built some great boats
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1752699

The Caliber is a well-respected boat too...
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1965179

I mentioned Moody, they built good boats too. Here's one of the few
aft-cabin boats I like
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1615826



"Capt. Rob" wrote:
We have several "old timers" at our marina who set off now and again
with boats suitable for your plan.


Oh really? And did you ask them what they think, Bubbles?


Pearson 35....this old timer even came as a yawl and some were fit out
for blue water. A bargain, even when refit.


"Even came as a yawl" meaning what, exactly? Are yawls good?


..... No doubt others
will have much more to add.


No doubt. And there's a good reason why.


"Charles Momsen" wrote:
Congratulations on your retirement. Rather than get the ideal boat upfront,
buy a lower cost "value" boat first

He said he was retiring, not retiring in poverty with a big chip on
his shoulder.


More boats-

I'm not a big fan of wish-booms, but the cat-ketch rig is the easiest
to handle. IIRC these were built by Hinterhoeller
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1940305

Another one that's a bit on the racy side, but an awesome sailing boat
& comfortable enough for cruising
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1874738

Oh and take a look at some Ericsons, too.

There's a gazillion boats out there JL. It sounds like you're really
got a handle on putting yourself into the position you want, rather
than focussing on "buying a boat." Gathering info & skills, and making
contacts, is a very important part of the picture.

And if you find yourself in the coasstal Carolinas, by all means let
us know. you'd be very welcome and I can guarantee some sailing and
also meeting some long-term sailors who will be glad to talk.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 05:21:54 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

jlrogers±³© wrote:
All my life I've "dreamed" about retiring on a boat and sailing from here to
there, as the spirit moves me. However, my only experience is some lake
sailing, a little Gulf of Mexico experience, and four years on a destroyer
in the navy. Â*And, except for a couple of years in the 90's, most of my
sailing was done 35 years ago.


Actually, the Navy experience can be valuable. For example, the way
the Navy handles dock lines is far better than the way most cruisers
do. 'Dipping the eye' and apply chafe gear are just two examples.

For deck apes, that'll work. BT's waste a lot of time trying to light
off the sails.

--Vic

Vic Smith wrote:
For deck apes, that'll work. *BT's waste a lot of time trying to light
off the sails.


I just consider the winches to be like valves....
"righty tighty, lefty loosey" *

I think the MMs might get confused though

DSK

wrote in message
...


"Charles Momsen" wrote:
Congratulations on your retirement. Rather than get the ideal boat
upfront,
buy a lower cost "value" boat first

He said he was retiring, not retiring in poverty with a big chip on
his shoulder.


I get your point exactly there Doug, however you seemed to have missed mine.
JL may not have an MD as a wife to financially carry the load, he may have
actually raised children, or he may find that spending most of his time in a
30' fiberglass cocoon doesn't promote good health or vigorous exercise. How
many times does one see a fully decked out boat, a few years old, that some
retiree is selling because they found out they don't like sailing (once the
novelty wears off) or they suffered some physical injury (like a blown disc
from hauling an anchor the wrong way) or their health is failing? JL talked
about unknowns and uncertaintity regarding liveaboard and my advice was
weighted towards the possibility that he wanted to remain retired at a
standard of living acceptable to him. A "value" boat does not imply poverty
in the least, no more than testing a paint spray gun on a piece of cardboard
implies the mansion you are about to paint is a donkey shack. If JL lives
another 30 years, what is the opportunity cost of blowing an extra 25K now?
Is sailing more about the brand of boat or is it about the activity? If
it's the former then jump right aboard Bobsprit's tricked out vessel he's
got it all worked out. If it's the latter then cost is not a factor, whether
it is low or high. Expenses become a factor in the whole context of JL's
life which only he can determine himself. With the current financial
uncertainty and the prospects of some long term negative financial issues I
was simply offering an opinion that considered other factors. If you find my
financial conservatism offensive, I would suggest that you look inward to
find the source of the problem. It was your great circle trip that expenses
were logged down to the penny, schedules were kept to the minute. Several
here commented on your rigid, miserly bent. It seems my advice is congruent
with your ways and I'm sorry to have knocked that chip off of your shoulder.

He said he was retiring, not retiring in poverty with a big chip on
his shoulder.

"Charles Momsen" wrote:
I get your point exactly there Doug, however you seemed to have missed mine.

Glad you got my point... but I don't think I missed yours, not at all.
In fact, given the length & tone of your reply, looks like I nailed it
precisely.


JL may not have an MD as a wife to financially carry the load

Plenty of single lady doctors around who would like a partner. Many of
them love sailing, or other outdoors puruits.
They tend to be very very picky about long-term choices though.


... he may find that spending most of his time in a
30' fiberglass cocoon doesn't promote good health or vigorous exercise.

Duh. It doesn't really... and that's true of any cruising vessel
regardless of size. One cannot go for a long walk in the woods aboard
a 65' Swan, for example.

This is one reason why passagemaking doesn't appeal to me personally.
But travel by sailboat has it's rewards, for sure.


... How
many times does one see a fully decked out boat, a few years old, that some
retiree is selling because they found out they don't like sailing (once the
novelty wears off) or they suffered some physical injury (like a blown disc
from hauling an anchor the wrong way) or their health is failing?

I don't see *any* boats for sale that meet my own standards. Not brand
new, not used. Quite frankly, one of the biggest barriers to cruising
is that very very boats are actually designed & outfitted for it. So
most cruisers work on their boats, do some upgrading, and then go
anyway. Or work work work on the boat until they get sick of it &
quit.

As for health issues, especially as one ages, that is a great point.
Go now, while you are able! And take care of your back, it's the only
one you'll ever have.


.... JL talked
about unknowns and uncertaintity regarding liveaboard and my advice was
weighted towards the possibility that he wanted to remain retired at a
standard of living acceptable to him.


And of course, you know exactly how much disposable income he has,
what investments, medical benefits, etc etc.


A "value" boat does not imply poverty
in the least

A well-chosen boat does not have to be expensive, either. However,
proper equipment *is* expensive which is why you see so little of it
on older cruising boats. Heck one could spend $20k just rewiring one
of the 'plastic classics' from the 1960s & 1970s. This is why I said
that maintenance & upgrades were more important than the brand name.


..... Expenses become a factor in the whole context of JL's
life which only he can determine himself.

So why are you trying to push your own penny-pinching attitude on him?



..... If you find my
financial conservatism offensive, I would suggest that you look inward to
find the source of the problem.

Oh, were you being "financially conservative"? Buying and then selling
a boat is very expensive, I can't think of a better method to throw
away a couple tens of thousands of dollars. That's why I siggested
waiting until he had some experience with a variety of boats to find
what he might like & find practical for his own fancy.


.... It was your great circle trip that expenses
were logged down to the penny, schedules were kept to the minute.

Really?
You give me too much credit. Our schedule went more or less by the
month, other than navigation.
Our expenses were tallied no more accurately than I always keep my own
books, and not "to the penny" unfortunately. I budget my time
according to my priorities, and I spend some time on finances but
don't obsess. Why are -you- obsessing over other people's finances?



.... Several
here commented on your rigid, miserly bent.

Let me guess... it was you, Saltie/BB, and Bubbles. All failures at
sailing and cruising who backstab anybody here who displays some
degree of success. Surpise surprise!

However, let me say in parting that I don't wish you ill, I hope you
find some contentment in actually GOING SAILING.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

wrote in message
...
He said he was retiring, not retiring in poverty with a big chip on
his shoulder.

"Charles Momsen" wrote:
I get your point exactly there Doug, however you seemed to have missed
mine.

Glad you got my point... but I don't think I missed yours, not at all.
In fact, given the length & tone of your reply, looks like I nailed it
precisely.


My point to JL was one thing, my point to you is another. I merely made an
opinion from my point of view and based upon my life experiences to JL, you
came back with the chip on my shoulder comment. I won't apologize for NOT
being in the top 1% of wage earners, being worth tens of millions of
spending a part of each day counting my money. I made a choice decades ago
and I knew then riches were not on the horizon, but something more
meaningful to me was. So if you want to rub my nose in my financial status
with poverty comments, by all means go ahead. I'm not a winner in the rat
race, I never signed up.



JL may not have an MD as a wife to financially carry the load

Plenty of single lady doctors around who would like a partner. Many of
them love sailing, or other outdoors puruits.
They tend to be very very picky about long-term choices though.

True, one of the biggest factors for doctors is that their career takes
precedent over the rest of their life so their other choices are very
limited.



... he may find that spending most of his time in a
30' fiberglass cocoon doesn't promote good health or vigorous exercise.

Duh. It doesn't really... and that's true of any cruising vessel
regardless of size. One cannot go for a long walk in the woods aboard
a 65' Swan, for example.

Nor can one pole vault below deck (except in BS's aft cabin). It is true
that any size vessel doesn't promote good health, so why spend too much to
find that out?



This is one reason why passagemaking doesn't appeal to me personally.
But travel by sailboat has it's rewards, for sure.

Sailing is great! It's on my top ten list of recreational pursuits.



... How
many times does one see a fully decked out boat, a few years old, that
some
retiree is selling because they found out they don't like sailing (once
the
novelty wears off) or they suffered some physical injury (like a blown
disc
from hauling an anchor the wrong way) or their health is failing?

I don't see *any* boats for sale that meet my own standards. Not brand
new, not used. Quite frankly, one of the biggest barriers to cruising
is that very very boats are actually designed & outfitted for it. So
most cruisers work on their boats, do some upgrading, and then go
anyway.

Everyone's standards are different and every boat is a compromise in some
way. Some people's standards are unrealistic, some people are happy and
realistic with less.

Or work work work on the boat until they get sick of it &
quit.

Boats, houses, cars, etc. The one thing in common is that most lose money on
it. I was pointing this out, in an indirect way, to JL. It's his retirement
he's spending.



As for health issues, especially as one ages, that is a great point.
Go now, while you are able! And take care of your back, it's the only
one you'll ever have.

Not everyone has that opportunity. Some wait for retirement to do things
they dream of, as in JL's case. My advice, which is my opinion, was to
minimize certain risks.



.... JL talked
about unknowns and uncertaintity regarding liveaboard and my advice was
weighted towards the possibility that he wanted to remain retired at a
standard of living acceptable to him.


And of course, you know exactly how much disposable income he has,
what investments, medical benefits, etc etc.

I have no idea what his financial status is. Maybe you do. I was simply
offering an opinion, should I apologize for it? To whom? You? JL?




A "value" boat does not imply poverty
in the least

A well-chosen boat does not have to be expensive, either. However,
proper equipment *is* expensive which is why you see so little of it
on older cruising boats. Heck one could spend $20k just rewiring one
of the 'plastic classics' from the 1960s & 1970s. This is why I said
that maintenance & upgrades were more important than the brand name.

That's great. I simply said that buying a "value" boat first and inflicting
the costs of learning on it, rather than something more expensive might be
worth considering.



..... Expenses become a factor in the whole context of JL's
life which only he can determine himself.

So why are you trying to push your own penny-pinching attitude on him?

I only offered a opinion that I hoped was non-offensive to him.

I'm sorry for being so pushy JL, it wasn't my intent. My intention was to
point out saving money in the long term and reducing financial risk. He did
ask questions in a cautionary tone with financial constraints and I took
them into consideration, perhaps a bit too much. If I inferred anything bad
about JL I apologize, it was not my intent - it was simply my interpretation
of the question and of course I have my biases.

The last thing I want to be perceived as is someone who is pushing an
atitude.





..... If you find my
financial conservatism offensive, I would suggest that you look inward to
find the source of the problem.

Oh, were you being "financially conservative"? Buying and then selling
a boat is very expensive, I can't think of a better method to throw
away a couple tens of thousands of dollars. That's why I siggested
waiting until he had some experience with a variety of boats to find
what he might like & find practical for his own fancy.


Buying and selling a boat can be very expensive indeed, I was simply
offering an alternative to that - buy a "value" boat first. I'm not
accustomed to throwing away tens of thousands of dollars with each boat I
buy and sell, some people may be and probably can well afford to. It's just
not in my means or game plan.




.... It was your great circle trip that expenses
were logged down to the penny, schedules were kept to the minute.

Really?
You give me too much credit. Our schedule went more or less by the
month, other than navigation.
Our expenses were tallied no more accurately than I always keep my own
books, and not "to the penny" unfortunately. I budget my time
according to my priorities, and I spend some time on finances but
don't obsess. Why are -you- obsessing over other people's finances?

The theme of my advice was to avoid having to obssess over finances, to buy
something one could walk away from with minimal financial loss. JL did make
cost a consideration, I was trying to operate within that framework.
Apparently, in some way, I was out of bounds. Sorry, JL.





.... Several
here commented on your rigid, miserly bent.

Let me guess... it was you, Saltie/BB, and Bubbles. All failures at
sailing and cruising who backstab anybody here who displays some
degree of success. Surpise surprise!

I never commented on your rigid, miserly bent until now, only to say others
have mentioned it. What is your metric for failure at sailing and cruising?
Is it your standards applied to someone else?



However, let me say in parting that I don't wish you ill, I hope you
find some contentment in actually GOING SAILING.

Likewise, I simply hope you find contentment on your own terms.

..... Expenses become a factor in the whole context of JL's
life which only he can determine himself.

Economics is a factor, isn't it always? A year ago when I gave my notice,
my retirement budget was 20% greater than it is today. Current economic
conditions have made me a lot more conservative.