"Vito" wrote:
Men and women jump on grenades to save others.

While there are certainly many women who have done brave things to
save others, I am unaware of any women who have thrown themselves on
grenades.

DSK

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:23:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


And did you consider our current President's "military
experience" (getting drunk at the O-club and going AWOL, followed by
the convenient loss of all his records) valuable when weighing your
vote?

DSK


Doug, as one who was there I'll offer some additional information
regarding this subject.

Within six months or so, I am the same age as both Bush and Clinton.
I was subject to those same decisions regarding what to do about the
draft similar to each of those individuals. Falling behind in my class
because of lack of money and the neccessity to work, and losing my
deferrment, I chose to join the Marine Corp Reserves, rather than be
drafted. I thought that, if deployed, it would be better to go with
people I know who would be pretrained. If not deployed, I could
continue with my education and life in general.

Bush joined the Guard much later than I. At the time that the
alledged AWOL took place the military was in a mode of trying to dump
excess personnel. The war in Vietnam was winding down, experienced
pilots and other military specalities were coming home and there were
too many of them. Additionally, the military had just gone through an
extensive pay increase to try to get equity with private industry to
be able to compete for future people, in anticipation of the
elimination of the draft and an all volunteer, professional military.
They were trying to cut costs. I know of many people in my unit who
were advised when transferrring to a new area, that they could get out
if a unit was not conveniently located. I got the impression they
were encouraged to do that. Maybe he used influence, maybe he didn't
but it helps to know what the climate was at that time.

Clinton, OTOH just dodged the draft. Used influence to temporarily
avoid serving so he could go to England on a Rhodes scholarship with
a promise he would serve on return. He broke that promise. This was
an earlier timeframe before the winding down of Viet Nam.

I think I have more respect for those that went to Canada to avoid the
draft and a war that was ill conceived and poorly executed, than for
Clinton. After all, they gave up their lives and homes without
knowing if they could ever come back. Clinton gave up nothing, just
used influence.

My thoughts on the matter

Frank

X-No-Archive: yes

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
Doug, as one who was there I'll offer some additional information
regarding this subject.

Don't confuse them with facts, Frank. You're challenging an article of
faith.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:23:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:


And did you consider our current President's "military
experience" (getting drunk at the O-club and going AWOL, followed by
the convenient loss of all his records) valuable when weighing your
vote?

DSK


Doug, as one who was there I'll offer some additional information
regarding this subject.

Within six months or so, I am the same age as both Bush and Clinton.
I was subject to those same decisions regarding what to do about the
draft similar to each of those individuals. Falling behind in my class
because of lack of money and the neccessity to work, and losing my
deferrment, I chose to join the Marine Corp Reserves, rather than be
drafted. I thought that, if deployed, it would be better to go with
people I know who would be pretrained. If not deployed, I could
continue with my education and life in general.

Bush joined the Guard much later than I. At the time that the
alledged AWOL took place the military was in a mode of trying to dump
excess personnel. The war in Vietnam was winding down, experienced
pilots and other military specalities were coming home and there were
too many of them. Additionally, the military had just gone through an
extensive pay increase to try to get equity with private industry to
be able to compete for future people, in anticipation of the
elimination of the draft and an all volunteer, professional military.
They were trying to cut costs. I know of many people in my unit who
were advised when transferrring to a new area, that they could get out
if a unit was not conveniently located. I got the impression they
were encouraged to do that. Maybe he used influence, maybe he didn't
but it helps to know what the climate was at that time.

Clinton, OTOH just dodged the draft. Used influence to temporarily
avoid serving so he could go to England on a Rhodes scholarship with
a promise he would serve on return. He broke that promise. This was
an earlier timeframe before the winding down of Viet Nam.

I think I have more respect for those that went to Canada to avoid the
draft and a war that was ill conceived and poorly executed, than for
Clinton. After all, they gave up their lives and homes without
knowing if they could ever come back. Clinton gave up nothing, just
used influence.

My thoughts on the matter

Frank


A bunch of bs. As though Bush didn't use his father's influence. As though
he completed his obligation. As though he wasn't a drunk.

I didn't realize that Clinton went to Canada, which last I checked was the
defacto destination for "draft dodgers."

Still fighting the same war there Frank... the one about how terrible
Clinton was. EXCEPT that he did more for this country than just about any
other president in modern times; whereas, Bush has done the worse by far.
Maybe you should blame Hillary for having enough sense of family values to
stick it out in the marriage.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On 23 Apr 2008 14:23:01 -0500, "Dave" wrote:

X-No-Archive: yes

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
news
Doug, as one who was there I'll offer some additional information
regarding this subject.

Don't confuse them with facts, Frank. You're challenging an article of
faith.

Not attempting to confuse, Dave. I met Doug and family on his ICW
loop and he is an intelligent and likable person. I'm simply offering
a perspective based on living through the times.

I'm not defending Bush. The use of influence to change position on a
national guard list was commonplace, so if it happened it would not
surprise me because I know others, locally, who took advantage of the
same thing. Individuals with a whole lot less stroke than the Bush
family. So his "crime" was to accept the outcome.

It was not time of fairness. If you were poor, could not afford to
continue education past high school, had no influence, could not trick
the system by taking drugs to fail the physical, you were drafted or
you joined, or you fled the country, plain and simple. Then the
lottery, then the elimination of the draft.

My comments on the "winding down" of the war are as I observed them.
Many combat pilots were coming back and the slots in guard units were
coveted, and they deserved them. If you didn't want to stay in, no
one was going to chain you to the post.

Frank

Frank Boettcher wrote:
Doug, as one who was there I'll offer some additional information
regarding this subject.


Frank, I appreciate & respect your views. I am old enough to remember
the "temper of the times" pretty well. The newscasts are still vivid
in my mind, in fact! Some stuff like the moonwalks, LBJ's signature
'Mah fellow Ah-murricans...' the footage of B-52 raids, and the
growing consensus that the war in Vietnam wasn't really worth it.

Within six months or so, I am the same age as both Bush and Clinton.
I was subject to those same decisions regarding what to do about the
draft similar to each of those individuals. Falling behind in my class
because of lack of money and the neccessity to work, and losing my
deferrment, I chose to join the Marine Corp Reserves, rather than be
drafted. I thought that, if deployed, it would be better to go with
people I know who would be pretrained. If not deployed, I could
continue with my education and life in general.


A good choice IMHO. Not sure what I would have done myself, my family
has a strong tradition of military service and I was not a great
student. With a spiralling recession & talk of reviving the draft, I
enlisted in the Navy in 1978.

Bush joined the Guard much later than I. At the time that the
alledged AWOL took place the military was in a mode of trying to dump
excess personnel.

Well, all his records have been lost, so nobody really knows, do they?
The funny thing is that most vets I know have copies of many of their
important military records, like evals and of course the DD-214. That
a prominent person like George Bush Jr. had his records "lost" and
none have ever surfaced really smells funny to me.


Clinton, OTOH just dodged the draft.

No more so than anybody else on a student deferment.

... Used influence to temporarily
avoid serving

I've never understood this. What influence did he have? He was a great
student but he was a nobody from a broken home and a poor family.

..so he could go to England on a Rhodes scholarship with
a promise he would serve on return. He broke that promise.

Possibly so. It wouldn't be the first, most likely, and it wouldn't be
the last. However, since bashing the Clintons has become the nation's
largest industry, and much of the bashing is utter fabrication to my
certain knowledge, I am rather reluctant to condemn Clinton for many
of the things that are flung at him, like this "draft dodger" stuff.
There are plenty of things that we definitely know he did that we can
condemn him for.


I think I have more respect for those that went to Canada to avoid the
draft and a war that was ill conceived and poorly executed, than for
Clinton.

How about the conscientious objectors who went to Vietnam and followed
their units around unarmed? That takes real guts IMHO.

DSK

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:36:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
Doug, as one who was there I'll offer some additional information
regarding this subject.


Frank, I appreciate & respect your views. I am old enough to remember
the "temper of the times" pretty well. The newscasts are still vivid
in my mind, in fact! Some stuff like the moonwalks, LBJ's signature
'Mah fellow Ah-murricans...' the footage of B-52 raids, and the
growing consensus that the war in Vietnam wasn't really worth it.

Within six months or so, I am the same age as both Bush and Clinton.
I was subject to those same decisions regarding what to do about the
draft similar to each of those individuals. Falling behind in my class
because of lack of money and the neccessity to work, and losing my
deferrment, I chose to join the Marine Corp Reserves, rather than be
drafted. I thought that, if deployed, it would be better to go with
people I know who would be pretrained. If not deployed, I could
continue with my education and life in general.


A good choice IMHO. Not sure what I would have done myself, my family
has a strong tradition of military service and I was not a great
student. With a spiralling recession & talk of reviving the draft, I
enlisted in the Navy in 1978.

Bush joined the Guard much later than I. At the time that the
alledged AWOL took place the military was in a mode of trying to dump
excess personnel.

Well, all his records have been lost, so nobody really knows, do they?
The funny thing is that most vets I know have copies of many of their
important military records, like evals and of course the DD-214. That
a prominent person like George Bush Jr. had his records "lost" and
none have ever surfaced really smells funny to me.


Clinton, OTOH just dodged the draft.

No more so than anybody else on a student deferment.

... Used influence to temporarily
avoid serving

I've never understood this. What influence did he have? He was a great
student but he was a nobody from a broken home and a poor family.

It is my understanding that he had an obligation based on an ROTC
scholarship and an individual holding a General rank in the Arkansas
guard intervened on his behalf to postpone his service until he
completed his Rhodes tour based on his promise to serve at the
conclusion of same. This is from memory, not from the time but later
on. You are welcome to research and prove me wrong, it won't be the
first time.

Frank

..so he could go to England on a Rhodes scholarship with
a promise he would serve on return. He broke that promise.

Possibly so. It wouldn't be the first, most likely, and it wouldn't be
the last. However, since bashing the Clintons has become the nation's
largest industry, and much of the bashing is utter fabrication to my
certain knowledge, I am rather reluctant to condemn Clinton for many
of the things that are flung at him, like this "draft dodger" stuff.
There are plenty of things that we definitely know he did that we can
condemn him for.


I think I have more respect for those that went to Canada to avoid the
draft and a war that was ill conceived and poorly executed, than for
Clinton.

How about the conscientious objectors who went to Vietnam and followed
their units around unarmed? That takes real guts IMHO.

DSK

I've never understood this. What influence did he have? He was a great
student but he was a nobody from a broken home and a poor family.

Frank Boettcher wrote:
It is my understanding that he had an obligation based on an ROTC
scholarship and an individual holding a General rank in the Arkansas
guard intervened on his behalf to postpone his service until he
completed his Rhodes tour based on his promise to serve at the
conclusion of same. This is from memory, not from the time but later
on.

Well, sure... at the time, who had ever heard of Bill Clinton?

It sounds more plausible than other stuff I've heard him accused of.
It's possible that he offered to serve on return and as you said
earlier, they were de-mobilizing and didn't want him. It would be more
in character for him to have conveniently "forgotten," though.


You are welcome to research and prove me wrong, it won't be the
first time.


As you may have guessed, the Clintons are not my favorite people. But
there is certainly a large industrial base of Clinton bashing (so much
that it's being outsourced these days) and a lot of it is pure hokum.
I have no idea where to research anything like this anyway....
probably could find many sources both verifying & disproving it.

My favorite Clintonism is when he declared that he "knew more about
farming than any previous U.S. President." I mean, c'mon Bill, most of
the Founding Fathers *were* farmers themselves! And falling asleep
during Reagan's funeral was a classy move too.

DSK

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 06:25:12 -0400, wrote this crap:

They are stored at Dick Cheney's "undisclosed location, along with police
reports of Dubya's drunk driving and wife beating incidents.


Do you think you'll ever see Hillary's DD-214, or Bam-Bam's? They're
probably with the records from the Rose Law Firm.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

They are stored at Dick Cheney's "undisclosed location, along with police
reports of Dubya's drunk driving and wife beating incidents.


Wife-beating? You're kidding, right?
Laura would mop the floor with W.
The Bush women have all the backbone in that family.

Bloody Horvath wrote:
Do you think you'll ever see Hillary's DD-214, or Bam-Bam's? They're
probably with the records from the Rose Law Firm.


They found those. Still looking for Nixon's tapes though.

DSK