Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article ,
katy wrote:

Then they will put the bill through with a 2/3rd's majority vote..if
that doesn't happen, then it was not the people's will....


That's pretty naive even for you.



That's the way the Constitution works...if you don't like it, get a
petition going to change it...you'll need quite a few signatures and
quite a few states..will keep you very busy for quite some time...


I guess you never heard of lobbies and the money influence they have
on our elected officials. Do a google search on Jack Abramoff.

Neveretheless, we have a Constitutional government that spells out how
the people can remedy these ills. If the people are not willing to speak
up and take hold, then it's on their heads, lobbyists or no lobbyists.
And if lobbyists are money buying power, then start supporting the
lobbyist of your choice. Why do you think the NRA is so powerful? Lots
of regular everyday people contribute to them. Why is the AMA and the
NEA (both liberal I may add) so powerful? Becasue doctors and teachers
give their money to that specific cause. Blaming loobyists and money
interests is just another cop out that the average American uses to
justify their apathy and ennui in their own government. The American
people get exactly what they deserve.

In article ,
katy wrote:
I guess you never heard of lobbies and the money influence they have
on our elected officials. Do a google search on Jack Abramoff.

Neveretheless, we have a Constitutional government that spells out how
the people can remedy these ills. If the people are not willing to speak
up and take hold, then it's on their heads, lobbyists or no lobbyists.
And if lobbyists are money buying power, then start supporting the
lobbyist of your choice. Why do you think the NRA is so powerful? Lots
of regular everyday people contribute to them. Why is the AMA and the
NEA (both liberal I may add) so powerful? Becasue doctors and teachers
give their money to that specific cause. Blaming loobyists and money
interests is just another cop out that the average American uses to
justify their apathy and ennui in their own government. The American
people get exactly what they deserve.

Katy, katy... the point is that the lobbiest money is interfering with
the process. Some would claim that it's a first amendement right of
theirs to pump big money to politicians to get their way, but the
effect is to subvert the will of the people.

If you don't think that's true, see how easy or difficult it is for a
private citizen to get a private meeting with the President vs. a big
sponsor. This is true for both parties. The Dems have claimed they're
going to address it, but so far, nothing has happened.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Katy, katy... the point is that the lobbiest money is interfering with
the process. Some would claim that it's a first amendement right of
theirs to pump big money to politicians to get their way, but the
effect is to subvert the will of the people.

Yes but in a capitalist country people vote two ways. One of those is
with your money. If you don't give your money to the groups with the
lobbyist then they can't do anything about it. They aren't printing
that money out themselves. They get it from the people that are
supporting their cause because the average person can't get a meeting
with the president. They take your money, pool it together and gain
enough political force to do what is in their best interest. If you
are supproting them then it should be in your best interest as well.

In article . com,
Bill wrote:
Katy, katy... the point is that the lobbiest money is interfering with
the process. Some would claim that it's a first amendement right of
theirs to pump big money to politicians to get their way, but the
effect is to subvert the will of the people.

Yes but in a capitalist country people vote two ways. One of those is
with your money. If you don't give your money to the groups with the
lobbyist then they can't do anything about it. They aren't printing
that money out themselves. They get it from the people that are
supporting their cause because the average person can't get a meeting
with the president. They take your money, pool it together and gain
enough political force to do what is in their best interest. If you
are supproting them then it should be in your best interest as well.

Like Microsoft, the health care companies, insurance companies, big
oil, big unions, etc.? I don't think they really represent "people,"
when they lobby Congress. The interests of the corporations might
coincide with some individual interests, perhaps more likely some of
their stockholders, but certainly not all of them. So, that's not
really voting, it's really influencing the voting of those in Congress
and the White House.

Again, try and get access to Bush and not be the head of a large
corp. or a big lobby firm and see what happens.



--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

Like Microsoft, the health care companies, insurance companies, big
oil, big unions, etc.? I don't think they really represent "people,"
when they lobby Congress. The interests of the corporations might
coincide with some individual interests, perhaps more likely some of
their stockholders, but certainly not all of them. So, that's not
really voting, it's really influencing the voting of those in Congress
and the White House.

It's all about money, Jon. "Them that has, gets. Them that don't, don't".
The irony is that the country is largely composed of middle class citizens,
a class of people largely unrepresented in either the White House or
Congress.


Again, try and get access to Bush and not be the head of a large
corp. or a big lobby firm and see what happens.

Hell, try getting access to the president of any major American corporation.
About as futile.

Max

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...

Like Microsoft, the health care companies, insurance companies, big
oil, big unions, etc.? I don't think they really represent "people,"
when they lobby Congress. The interests of the corporations might
coincide with some individual interests, perhaps more likely some of
their stockholders, but certainly not all of them. So, that's not
really voting, it's really influencing the voting of those in Congress
and the White House.

It's all about money, Jon. "Them that has, gets. Them that don't,
don't". The irony is that the country is largely composed of middle class
citizens, a class of people largely unrepresented in either the White
House or Congress.


Again, try and get access to Bush and not be the head of a large
corp. or a big lobby firm and see what happens.

Hell, try getting access to the president of any major American
corporation. About as futile.

Max

And, continuing to shrink...

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article ,
katy wrote:

I guess you never heard of lobbies and the money influence they have
on our elected officials. Do a google search on Jack Abramoff.


Neveretheless, we have a Constitutional government that spells out how
the people can remedy these ills. If the people are not willing to speak
up and take hold, then it's on their heads, lobbyists or no lobbyists.
And if lobbyists are money buying power, then start supporting the
lobbyist of your choice. Why do you think the NRA is so powerful? Lots
of regular everyday people contribute to them. Why is the AMA and the
NEA (both liberal I may add) so powerful? Becasue doctors and teachers
give their money to that specific cause. Blaming loobyists and money
interests is just another cop out that the average American uses to
justify their apathy and ennui in their own government. The American
people get exactly what they deserve.


Katy, katy... the point is that the lobbiest money is interfering with
the process. Some would claim that it's a first amendement right of
theirs to pump big money to politicians to get their way, but the
effect is to subvert the will of the people.

If you don't think that's true, see how easy or difficult it is for a
private citizen to get a private meeting with the President vs. a big
sponsor. This is true for both parties. The Dems have claimed they're
going to address it, but so far, nothing has happened.


I wonder why?? )that's a rhetorical question) SOme of the largest
lobbying groups are liberal...like i mentioned: the NEA, the AMA, 2 of
the most powerful...but then, those groups are made up of people with
interests who use the group effort rather than the individual effort to
make their mark...many regular old citizens contribute to those groups,
not just the big money...so..if you really want this war to end..start
lobbying...get some big money behind you...obviously, big money isn;'t
interested in ending the war...

In article ,
katy wrote:
Katy, katy... the point is that the lobbiest money is interfering with
the process. Some would claim that it's a first amendement right of
theirs to pump big money to politicians to get their way, but the
effect is to subvert the will of the people.

If you don't think that's true, see how easy or difficult it is for a
private citizen to get a private meeting with the President vs. a big
sponsor. This is true for both parties. The Dems have claimed they're
going to address it, but so far, nothing has happened.


I wonder why?? )that's a rhetorical question) SOme of the largest
lobbying groups are liberal...like i mentioned: the NEA, the AMA, 2 of
the most powerful...but then, those groups are made up of people with
interests who use the group effort rather than the individual effort to
make their mark...many regular old citizens contribute to those groups,
not just the big money...so..if you really want this war to end..start
lobbying...get some big money behind you...obviously, big money isn;'t
interested in ending the war...

What does the political affiliation have to do with the access we're
talking about? You're really stretching if you think this is good for
the country.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
In article ,
katy wrote:

Katy, katy... the point is that the lobbiest money is interfering with
the process. Some would claim that it's a first amendement right of
theirs to pump big money to politicians to get their way, but the
effect is to subvert the will of the people.

If you don't think that's true, see how easy or difficult it is for a
private citizen to get a private meeting with the President vs. a big
sponsor. This is true for both parties. The Dems have claimed they're
going to address it, but so far, nothing has happened.



I wonder why?? )that's a rhetorical question) SOme of the largest
lobbying groups are liberal...like i mentioned: the NEA, the AMA, 2 of
the most powerful...but then, those groups are made up of people with
interests who use the group effort rather than the individual effort to
make their mark...many regular old citizens contribute to those groups,
not just the big money...so..if you really want this war to end..start
lobbying...get some big money behind you...obviously, big money isn;'t
interested in ending the war...


What does the political affiliation have to do with the access we're
talking about? You're really stretching if you think this is good for
the country.


I don't think it's good...but sitting here and griping and complaining
about it certainly doesn';t change anything...like I said, if you don't
like things the way they are then get off your butt and get out there
and change things...that's the only way that the PEOPLE are going to get
back their governemnt..they have to become active participants...and
they can use the vehicles already established to infiltrate or they can
create their own new ways...I write letters to Congressmen all the
time..do you" I respond to surveys if they are woirthwhile...I write
network television stations and complain when something doesn't suit
me..I write manufactuter's when products are subp par or are
defective...I give my money to organizations that represent my
interests...and not to blanket charities like United Way...all I'm
saying is that sitting on alt.sailing.asa griping and moaning about the
conditions of the world is a futile endeavor...stop talking about it and
get out there and do something about it...

"katy" wrote in message
...

I don't think it's good...but sitting here and griping and complaining
about it certainly doesn';t change anything...like I said, if you don't
like things the way they are then get off your butt and get out there and
change things...that's the only way that the PEOPLE are going to get back
their governemnt..they have to become active participants...and they can
use the vehicles already established to infiltrate or they can create
their own new ways...I write letters to Congressmen all the time..do you"
I respond to surveys if they are woirthwhile...I write network television
stations and complain when something doesn't suit me..I write
manufactuter's when products are subp par or are defective...I give my
money to organizations that represent my interests...and not to blanket
charities like United Way...all I'm saying is that sitting on
alt.sailing.asa griping and moaning about the conditions of the world is a
futile endeavor...stop talking about it and get out there and do something
about it...

I admire your persistent faith in the system, K. I guess I've been around
long enough to have become cynical. I've watched grass-roots movements rise
and fall without effect. I've watched small corporations get kicked around
and dissolved by big money and its influence with government. I pay a
horrendous bill in FICA, only to be told I'm unlikely to ever see even a
reasonable percentage of it returned by SS. And I see the man for whom I
voted and believed to be honorable and decent slide into the hip pockets of
every special interest that gave him a few bucks for his
election/re-election. Yeah, I'm cynical.

Max