thunder wrote:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 10:04:41 -0700, Joe wrote:


War crimes are delt with by military tribunals, don't like it...don't
attack Americans and start a war, and get captured.


Brigadier General James Walker, the top uniformed lawyer for the Marines,
said no civilized country should deny a defendant the right to see the
evidence against him, and that the United States "should not be the
first."



Sounds like a smart Jarhead...if there is such a thing.

Joe


From:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/...0908detain.php

Jonathan Ganz wrote:


Everyone deserves due process.

Sure... and people at war have a process, then American citizens have a
judical process..

Two different things.

I'd like to keep debating, but I have to go get ice, beer, and secure
gear adrift...we shall be departing soon for a full night of sailing,
do not plan on returning until mid-morning---noon.

Music, warm breeze, full sails, full moon, fresh shrimp, swimming and
good friends.

Have a good evening Jon.

Joe

The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times, that he's not
believeable.
--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

In article .com,
Joe wrote:

Jonathan Ganz wrote:


Everyone deserves due process.

Sure... and people at war have a process, then American citizens have a
judical process..

Two different things.

Apparently not according to the Supreme Court...

I'd like to keep debating, but I have to go get ice, beer, and secure
gear adrift...we shall be departing soon for a full night of sailing,
do not plan on returning until mid-morning---noon.

Music, warm breeze, full sails, full moon, fresh shrimp, swimming and
good friends.

Have a good evening Jon.

Thanks! Same to you. I'm headed down to the boat in a couple of
hours. I've got to see a man about a furler. Then, a quick trip to
West Marine for some minor things, then maybe an evening sail if it's
not too late. I gotten get up early. Teaching out of Alameda tomorrow and
Sunday.
--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

In article ,
Dave wrote:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:11:33 -0000, "thunder" said:

Brigadier General James Walker, the top uniformed lawyer for the Marines,
said no civilized country should deny a defendant the right to see the
evidence against him, and that the United States "should not be the
first."

This is a question on which General Walker has no greater expertise than you
or I. Lawyers, whether military or otherwise, are supposed to be experts on
what the law is, not what it should be.

Give me a break. He's on the front lines of the issue. He certainly is
more qualified than either of us to render an opinion.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 11:13:38 -0700, Joe wrote:


The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yeah, sure. You might want to ask him his definition of torture.
Regardless, how can you believe this President when his lips are moving?



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Dec30.html

In article ,
thunder wrote:
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 11:13:38 -0700, Joe wrote:


The president says he never has given permission, and will never give
permission to torture anyone.

Yeah, sure. You might want to ask him his definition of torture.
Regardless, how can you believe this President when his lips are moving?



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Dec30.html

I would much rather wonder about the definition of what "is" is then
wonder about the definition of what torture is, umm, is.

--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave wrote:


So I take it you're advocating an invasion of Pakistan?

Yes. I think that would be a heck of lot more appropriate than
invading Iraq. They're certainly no friend of ours.


--
Capt. JG @@
www.sailnow.com

Pervez Musharraf might take issue with that. He's been one of our most
proactive allies in the war on terror.

Max

Yes, but he's lied or mislead us so many times,


Dave wrote:
You mean like that denial that there were secret prisons, which Oz and Doug
seem to have so much trouble locating?


Oh yeah Dave, the Bush Administration many times has said,
"Yeah, we use former KGB facilities to torture people in. We
fly prisoners overseas so they can be tortured outside the
U.S. by non-U.S. gov't agencies. Sure, we kidnap people and
hold them secretly."

Have they said that? No.

You could say, "The question has never been asked" but then
you have to explain the constant far-right-wing whining
about how these dadgum libby-rull traitors asking these
kinds of questions are helping the terrorists.

You could say that they have consistently answered "No
comment" which is slightly more believable. That has been
the answer a number of times. But the fact is that they have
said "No of course not, we don't do those things" many many
times.

Here's an example, a couple of weeks ago a reporter asked
President Bush about civilian casualtis caused by U.S.
forces. In the past he has refused comment, and the
administration has always been very hostile to suggestion
that U.S. forces have directly caused civilian casualties
(even if by accident). So I was startled to hear him say
something to the effect of 'We don't keep any official total
but at meetings I've heard numbers mentioned in the area of
25,000.'


Somebody's got a credibility problem, but I don't think it's GWB.

Maybe it's the people making excuses for him.

DSK

I've always thought it was rather odd to have ''rules'' for
war.

Whaz so civil 'bout war anyway


Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before

Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before

My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars

I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor

Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more

My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

G&R

Joe wrote:
OK you strive to do right, and they killed your kid because you were
not able to make them talk.. Was that right? Evil won. You lost...
over...no second chance.


1- torture is evil
2- People who torture others are evil
3- People who order others to commit torture are evil

And here's a big one:

4- things prisoners say to avoid or reduce torture are not
necessarily facts.

5- Torture very often goes wrong, such as when some "OGA
guys" killed one of the Al-Queda #2 men they captured before
he could reveal anything. Apparently had a weak heart or
something. Oh well.

So tell us Joe, what if you torture an Al-Queda prisoner and
gain NO useful info? Actually, that's not a 'what if' that
is what has happened.

In short, whatever your opponent does is not an excuse for
what *you* do, unless you're one of those weak-minded
weenies who think everything is somebody else's fault and
cannot take responsibility for your actions.

DSK