Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote
Well said, Doug. You sure know what you're talking about.

Yes, he does, too bad it's over your head.


My boat outpoints Jeffs. Period.

Well then, I guess your boat is faster and better. Nuff
said?

And it's better in the light **** of
the LIS.

What about the heavy ****?

Perior.

Bottled water?


And it's more fun to sail.

Yulp, I bet your fun-o-meter is pegged.


Uh oh!

Wet yourself?


--
Scotty
''One who never gets out of the Sound cannot, with any
degree of
credibility, comment on the courage of fellow sailors''
.....F.B.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote
If there's
any definition of a sailor that remotely holds fast, it's
a person who
earns money on the water.

Your wife makes money down on the docks. Does that make her
a sailor?

SV

Jeff won on all counts!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
only mentioned my friend who doesn't like Bennys to mock the
stupidity of saying "I have a friend who doesn't like cats."


You invented a friend. Not even a bad surveyor would make a sweeping
comment about Beneteau when they build such a range of boats at all
levels over so many years. Anyone could see that lie a mile away.

No, actually the friend is real, and he made that comment. He's
possibly the most respected surveyor in New England, so it would not
be right to divulge his identity over a comment that he made in
confidence. But I can believe he didn't mean it to apply to *all*
Benny's.

However, you claimed that your "imaginary friend" made such a blanket
comment about *all catamarans*, and you've done the same.

But again, only a jackass would be saying things like "my friend
doesn't like your boat."



You're trying to claim that I changed this from a "sailing
discussion"
to an attack on boating styles, but the record is very clear

Sorry, Jeff, but some people CAN READ. After we discussed sculling and
moving a boat with no air, you wrote this:

Some people can read, but obviously you're not part of that select group.


So you are admitting you have an under powered motor sailor?
That you motor when no wind is around...Tisk...tisk.....tisk..

Would I say such a thing?? I don't think so!


It was out of the blue and the trolling began in earnest. Busted AGAIN,
Jeff. Clearly you're very threatened.

Look again, jackass. It would appear that you're so paranoid you
think everyone is together in a grand conspiracy.




When you realized your blunder, you
started in with the personal attacks. You lost it on technical
grounds, then you lost it on personal grounds.

The 1st personal attack on my sailing is above

but not by me, numbnutz!

and I made no blunder as
I merely typed what is on the polars.

The blunder was not in the numbers, except in one case that was
obviously bogus (doing 6.4 knots at 38 true cannot yield a vmg of 5.8,
it has to be closer to 5.0). Your blunder was repeatedly talking
about various pinching angles without actually considering the optimal
point of max VMG. Any discussion of upwind performance has to begin
with that. Otherwise, its like comparing how slow cars can go in 4th
gear.

VMG and knots are listed
seperately, Jeff....of do you really even have the polars for your
boat?

Yes, I do have. But its becoming clear you have no idea how to use them.




You can rant and rave about how your boat "looks better to you"


Bwahahahahha! Now this one is pretty funny. The number one thing people
don't like about cats is how they look; comes up in any discussion
about them!

Didn't you just say that anyone can see through such a blanket claim?

I will admit that there are a lot of "condomarans" that are uglier
than a mud fence. I also think there are also a lot of ugly monos.
To me, your benny is just another Clorox Bottle, with pretentious
cheap styling. But it does seem to be an OK light air, flat water day
sailer.


most catamaran lovers think the PDQ 36 is one of the prettiest
cats


Hey, and amongst the Mole People, Danny Devito is a real hunk!

Is that why someone who races benny's thought yours had good performance?



but mine is faster on all points of sail, including upwind, in over
10
knots.

But on the LIS under 10 knots is common, so your boat is a dog here.

So? Do you have a point? I never once said that you or anyone else
should have a cat. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't
know enough about sailing to handle a cat, anyways.

You keep making the mistake of thinking that because picked a cat, I
think everyone should have one. Clearly you look at the world that
way, but the most people outgrow such immaturity at age 6 or 7.


It's also ugly, fat,

Omigod, are you claiming a catamaran has a large beam? Where did you
hear that?

requires TWO engines,

Most of my sistership use 9.9 hp outboards, some only have one. Twin
engines are a pain at tuneup time, but they come in real handy sometimes.

has no AC

and we all know without one sailing would be, what was your word? oh,
Horrific!

Sorry, I prefer a boat with good ventilation. I have 16 opening
hatches, 12 of them large. I don't need A/C, especially when
cruising, which is most of the Summer.

and is a total
dull ride by your own admission.

I never said such a thing. I just said it doesn't give you the same
feel as a boat the tips. You're the one who keeps claiming a boat has
to tip to be fun. Most newbies get over that in a few days.

I don't care if you sail it beneath
the planet of the apes, it's still a borrrriiing boat.

Its certainly clear that your lack of knowledge about sailing upwind
means that you think so. I can see you now, bringing it up to 30
true, and then claiming this is really boring.



As for my small fleet that we carry with us, you're just making it
abundantly clear to everyone that you know nothing of cruising.

There are quite a few cruising boats at City Island. Most don't need to
lug second sailboat to fill in for their dull cruisers.

That's because your definition of "cruising" is going over to Capri
and plugging in the A/C.


Can someone order a second pooch for Joe to screw??? BWAHAHAHAHHAHA!

Joe? What's Joe got to do with this? Is he part of your paranoid
delusion?

Jeff won on all counts!
 

No, actually the friend is real, and he made that comment. He's
possibly the most respected surveyor in New England, so it would not
be right to divulge his identity over a comment that he made in
confidence. But I can believe he didn't mean it to apply to *all*
Benny's.


Oh, so now he only doesn't like SOME Beneteau's. Oh, well...there you
have it, folks.


Some people can read, but obviously you're not part of that select
group.


Nice insult, but I posted your comment, the first in a series of
attacks started by you. Now your trapped in another Bobsprit web. Your
own fault.


Your blunder was repeatedly talking
about various pinching angles without actually considering the optimal
point of max VMG.


BWahahaha. You're truly stupid. I was discussing pinching angles.
Period. Pinching is not going to be optimal VMG, so why would I
consider it at all? It wasn't part of the discussion, until it was
clear that your Cat lost the pointing race.


Didn't you just say that anyone can see through such a blanket
claim?


Nope, because this one is true, and you go on to admit that many Cats
are ugly. I've yet to read or hear anyone call a catamaran pretty. Not
ever.

But it does seem to be an OK light air, flat water day
sailer.


I wonder if you actually believe that the Beneteau is only good for
light air day sailing? Wouldn't surprise me.



So? Do you have a point? I never once said that you or anyone else
should have a cat.


Thank goodness!!!

You've made it abundantly clear that you don't
know enough about sailing to handle a cat, anyways.

Yeah, especially after you already said it's easier to handle than my
boat!

You keep making the mistake of thinking that because picked a cat,
I
think everyone should have one.

Nope, I seriously think only folks over 55 should have one. If you're
that old, congrats on your fine boat!


Most of my sistership use 9.9 hp outboards, some only have one.
Twin
engines are a pain at tuneup time, but they come in real handy
sometimes.

Like when you need to


Sorry, I prefer a boat with good ventilation. I have 16 opening
hatches,

In two hulls plus the center section. My single hull has 11 opening
ports AND a/c. That's better airflow for her length and beam than your
boat. But all those opening hatches don't do a damn thing when your at
the dock writing on a 102 degree day...so we're pretty happy with the
a/c system. We may even add the generator.


never said such a thing.


Dude, you said for FUN you sail the dinghy!!! Must you lie with every
sentence?


You're the one who keeps claiming a boat has
to tip to be fun. Most newbies get over that in a few days.

Who knew that experienced sailors get over the feeling of a monhull
heeling and accelerating in a few days? Jeff, you really are some
sailor!



RB
35s5
NY

Jeff won on all counts!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
No, actually the friend is real, and he made that comment. He's
possibly the most respected surveyor in New England, so it would not
be right to divulge his identity over a comment that he made in
confidence. But I can believe he didn't mean it to apply to *all*
Benny's.


Oh, so now he only doesn't like SOME Beneteau's. Oh, well...there you
have it, folks.

Although the comment was true, it was made in parody of your stupid
comment that you have a friend that doesn't like cats. Actually, I
have a number of friends who think benny's are crap, but I try to keep
an open mind.




Some people can read, but obviously you're not part of that select
group.


Nice insult, but I posted your comment, the first in a series of
attacks started by you. Now your trapped in another Bobsprit web. Your
own fault.

Really, you posted my comments? Look again, **** for brains, you
posted Joe's comments. Everything you've posted since then has shown
to be a complete idiot. I've even told you that several times, but
you keep soiling yourself.



Your blunder was repeatedly talking
about various pinching angles without actually considering the optimal
point of max VMG.


BWahahaha. You're truly stupid. I was discussing pinching angles.

In other words, how to sail your boat badly.

Period. Pinching is not going to be optimal VMG, so why would I
consider it at all?

Why would you consider the optimal VMG? because that's one of the
most important parts of the polar. The question is, why would you
even consider the pinching angles if you're not racing? I looked at
an old USSailing Polar I had, they didn't even bother plotting the
speed higher than the optimal tacking angle.

It wasn't part of the discussion, until it was
clear that your Cat lost the pointing race.

The "pointing race"??? BWAHAHAHAHA! You really think anyone cares
about that? What an idiot you are! Now you're admitting that you
knew my boat could beat yours upwind, so all you wanted was to win the
"pointing race"!!!

You claim you sailed today, but it looks like you had someone explain
the difference between pinching and sailing upwind. Now you're trying
to find a way to make it look like your really meant to be an idiot!


Didn't you just say that anyone can see through such a blanket
claim?


Nope, because this one is true, and you go on to admit that many Cats
are ugly. I've yet to read or hear anyone call a catamaran pretty. Not
ever.

That might be because you're a newbie who lives in a area with almost
no cats.


But it does seem to be an OK light air, flat water day
sailer.


I wonder if you actually believe that the Beneteau is only good for
light air day sailing? Wouldn't surprise me.

That's the primary situation where it has a significant edge over
other boats, especially when used as a family cruiser.

....

You've made it abundantly clear that you don't
know enough about sailing to handle a cat, anyways.

Yeah, especially after you already said it's easier to handle than my
boat!

Easier in terms of physical exertion, but more difficult in terms of
the sailing skills. Clearly though you don't understand the
subtleties involved. One of the beauties of a cat is that without the
weight of the keel, it needs much less sail. Add to that a stable
platform, and one or two people can make a cat perform they way
monohull does with a full racing crew.


You keep making the mistake of thinking that because picked a cat,
I
think everyone should have one.

Nope, I seriously think only folks over 55 should have one. If you're
that old, congrats on your fine boat!

55 is a distant memory. Remember, I've been retired for 6 years.

Sorry, I prefer a boat with good ventilation. I have 16 opening
hatches,

In two hulls plus the center section. My single hull has 11 opening
ports AND a/c. That's better airflow for her length and beam than your
boat. But all those opening hatches don't do a damn thing when your at
the dock writing on a 102 degree day...so we're pretty happy with the
a/c system. We may even add the generator.

I said 12 large hatches, the kind you can crawl through. Two are over
each queen size bunk, facing forward so wide open its normally too
cold even in a heat wave. Two directly over the saloon table, two
more in the galley.

A/C is for people who only sleep at marinas. I'm glad you have one.
But whats the big deal? I could add one for a few thousand bucks, its
not like they're not allowed on some boats, its that most sailors
don't want them.


never said such a thing.

Dude, you said for FUN you sail the dinghy!!! Must you lie with every
sentence?

I do many things for fun. Or are you claiming that you can only have
one fun thing in your life. That's too bad - it means that you don't
have fun sleeping with women. We'll send our condolences to Suzy.



You're the one who keeps claiming a boat has
to tip to be fun. Most newbies get over that in a few days.

Who knew that experienced sailors get over the feeling of a monhull
heeling and accelerating in a few days? Jeff, you really are some
sailor!

I just don't need that tippy feeling to have fun.

Jeff won on all counts!
 

Actually, I
have a number of friends who think benny's are crap, but I try to keep
an open mind.


I used to think Beneteau was crap (Seriously), but then I actually
learned more about them. Guess what: Some Beneteau's ARE crap as are
some boats from Catalina and Hunter.


Why would you consider the optimal VMG? because that's one of the
most important parts of the polar. The question is, why would you
even consider the pinching angles if you're not racing?

Because it's part of the range of sailing capabilities of my boat and I
should know what that is and be skilled at it. Does that make ANY sense
to you? Also, I already descibed a situation where pinching is useful.


The "pointing race"??? BWAHAHAHAHA! You really think anyone cares
about that?


It seems that you care about it quite a bit for some reason.

Now you're admitting that you
knew my boat could beat yours upwind, so all you wanted was to win the
"pointing race"!!!

Wanted to win? Personification of inanimate boat capability and you
seem to take it personally. Scary. My boat is the higher pointing boat
and superior in light air, which is a dominant weather condition here
for several months of the season. Your boat is a BAD choice for the
LIS.

You claim you sailed today, but it looks like you had someone
explain
the difference between pinching and sailing upwind

Who knew pinching isn't sailing upwind, folks!!!!????


That might be because you're a newbie who lives in a area with
almost
no cats.

There are a lot of forums, lots of magazines and I know two cat owners
here. No one ever comments on the sweet lines of a Cat. But I have had
plenty of nice comments on the aggresive looks of my boat. I just found
out that she also won Boat of the Year in London in 1989. That's three
boat of the year awards. I guess a lot of people like her looks.


That's the primary situation where it has a significant edge over
other boats, especially when used as a family cruiser.

Actually, you're wrong again. In conditions where it's blowing nicely,
she's still got better accomodations and speed than most boats her
size. Only a few boats in her size/price range do as well or better,
but with more draft.


55 is a distant memory. Remember, I've been retired for 6 years.

Well, at your age a Cat makes sense. I admit that every time one comes
through here it's with older/retired owners. We have a Gemini and older
Prout here. Both owners are pushing 70.


I said 12 large hatches, the kind you can crawl through. Two are
over
each queen size bunk, facing forward so wide open its normally too
cold even in a heat wave. Two directly over the saloon table, two
more in the galley.

The 35s5 has two opening ports in her aft cabin, one opening hatch in
the head plus powered exhaust vent, two large hatches in the main cabin
and 4 opening ports, plus powered exhaust vent, another large hatch
forward. Given are smaller CF, that's very good air flow.

A/C is for people who only sleep at marinas.

You always hang on a mooring? You never work on board? A hundred
hatches won' make the interior liveable if it's 102 degrees out.

I'm glad you have one.

Us too. Everyone told us it was worthwhile and they were right. A
genset will probably be next.


But whats the big deal? I could add one for a few thousand bucks,
its
not like they're not allowed on some boats, its that most sailors
don't want them.

Proper A/C and install on my boat cost more than a few thousand bucks.
And on your boat it would be VERY expensive to do a proper install. Did
you know that a climate control system will even prolong the interior
life of your boat, cut mildew ad mold and create a healthier setting in
general?


just don't need that tippy feeling to have fun.

Jeff, the range of motion of a monhull is PART of the appeal for many
people. No one "get's over it" until their knees give out. When Heart
of Gold heels to 15% and slices upwind, her headstay clipping the
setting sun, it's all smiles. Aboard your cat it would feel like
standing on a dock. No thanks!


RB
35s5
NY

Jeff won on all counts!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote

But all those opening hatches don't do a damn thing when
your at
the dock


No editing needed. He actually admitted it.


--
Scotty
''One who never gets out of the Sound cannot, with
any degree of credibility, comment on the courage
of fellow sailors'' ....F.B.

Jeff won on all counts!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote

. Your boat is a BAD choice for the
LIS.


Did Jeff move?



--
Scotty
''One who never gets out of the Sound cannot, with
any degree of credibility, comment on the courage
of fellow sailors'' ....F.B.

Jeff won on all counts!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote
. When Heart
of Gold heels to 15% and slices upwind, her headstay
clipping the
setting sun, it's all smiles.

Those ''smiles'' are other sailors laughing at you.


--
Scotty
''One who never gets out of the Sound cannot, with
any degree of credibility, comment on the courage
of fellow sailors'' ....F.B.

Jeff won on all counts!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

Actually, I
have a number of friends who think benny's are crap, but I try to keep
an open mind.


I used to think Beneteau was crap (Seriously), but then I actually
learned more about them. Guess what: Some Beneteau's ARE crap as are
some boats from Catalina and Hunter.

I'm sure some are built better than others. And I've always supported
the wide diversity in designs - each boat has a place.

However, Bennyhuntalinas don't do anything for me, even if they're
setup to go fast. Also, Gemini's, EndeavorCats, and most of the
French charter cats I find equally unappealing.


Why would you consider the optimal VMG? because that's one of the
most important parts of the polar. The question is, why would you
even consider the pinching angles if you're not racing?

Because it's part of the range of sailing capabilities of my boat and I
should know what that is and be skilled at it. Does that make ANY sense
to you? Also, I already descibed a situation where pinching is useful.

Pinching is useful in some situations, but only a racer is concerned
about exactly the angle and speed.



The "pointing race"??? BWAHAHAHAHA! You really think anyone cares
about that?


It seems that you care about it quite a bit for some reason.

You have frequently said that a given boat "doesn't point well."
Virtually all sailors will take that to mean that the angle of optimal
VMG is not very high. Some naive sailors will also take it to imply
that a boat doesn't go upwind well. It turns out that when *you* say
that, you're ignoring the primary usage and talking about a rather
esoteric meaning that no one actually cares about, outside of race
tacticians.

What this means is that every description of a boat that you've every
made is tainted by your fundamental mis-understanding of the basics of
sailing. Of course, everyone already knew that.



Now you're admitting that you
knew my boat could beat yours upwind, so all you wanted was to win the
"pointing race"!!!

Wanted to win? Personification of inanimate boat capability and you
seem to take it personally. Scary. My boat is the higher pointing boat

Fine. Like most of the features you look for, its rather useless and
misses the point of sailing out of sight of your slip.

and superior in light air, which is a dominant weather condition here
for several months of the season. Your boat is a BAD choice for the
LIS.

And how often do I sail in LIS? Although I've passed through a number
of times, its almost never been a "destination."


You claim you sailed today, but it looks like you had someone
explain
the difference between pinching and sailing upwind

Who knew pinching isn't sailing upwind, folks!!!!????

To those of us who actually learned to sail, there is an implication
that we make at least a vague attempt to handle the boat properly for
a given situation. Someone who chronically over-sheets, or luffs
sails, or has the jib sheeted to the wrong side is branded as a newbie.

So is someone who chronically pinches and claims he's going upwind.




That might be because you're a newbie who lives in a area with
almost
no cats.

There are a lot of forums, lots of magazines and I know two cat owners
here. No one ever comments on the sweet lines of a Cat.

That's wrong. I just made such a comment. Several people in this
forum have commented that my boat is nice looking. I'll admit that I
don't get compliments like I got for the Nonsuch ("this is easily the
prettiest boat in the marina...") but I have had my share of
compliments, and more than a few people have said this is just the
kind of boat they want to go cruising in.

But I have had
plenty of nice comments on the aggresive looks of my boat.

Its not often that anyone will tell a boat owner that their boat
really sucks. You have to rely on your real friends like us for that
kind of tough love.

I just found
out that she also won Boat of the Year in London in 1989. That's three
boat of the year awards. I guess a lot of people like her looks.


That's the primary situation where it has a significant edge over
other boats, especially when used as a family cruiser.

Actually, you're wrong again. In conditions where it's blowing nicely,
she's still got better accomodations and speed than most boats her
size. Only a few boats in her size/price range do as well or better,
but with more draft.

You could look at the "Motion Comfort Factor" of your boat. Its hard
to find one with a lower rating that isn't billed as a racing boat.
On the other hand, lots of boats will be a lot more comfortable in
stronger air, and they move along just fine.

Of course, if you only measure performance as "pointing ability" and
comfort as having a 7 foot bunk that needs A/C so as to be not
"horrific," then maybe yours is the best.



55 is a distant memory. Remember, I've been retired for 6 years.

Well, at your age a Cat makes sense. I admit that every time one comes
through here it's with older/retired owners. We have a Gemini and older
Prout here. Both owners are pushing 70.

The average age of the users group is certainly brought up by the
retirees, but there are plenty of owners in their early 50's and some
younger. Clearly since the used price of any but the cheapest cats is
over $120K, this is not for young kids just starting out. Further,
for daysailing, there are better multihull rides than a cruising cat -
maybe a F28.



I said 12 large hatches, the kind you can crawl through. Two are
over
each queen size bunk, facing forward so wide open its normally too
cold even in a heat wave. Two directly over the saloon table, two
more in the galley.

The 35s5 has two opening ports in her aft cabin, one opening hatch in
the head plus powered exhaust vent, two large hatches in the main cabin
and 4 opening ports, plus powered exhaust vent, another large hatch
forward. Given are smaller CF, that's very good air flow.

The only hatches that really give ventilation are the 3 large forward
facing hatches. The small side hatches are only useful for survival,
and what's up with hatches into the cockpit? I can understand why
sleeping in your aft cabin is "horrific" even on a mooring.


A/C is for people who only sleep at marinas.

You always hang on a mooring? You never work on board? A hundred
hatches won' make the interior liveable if it's 102 degrees out.

We slept on moorings or anchor maybe 45 nights last summer, it will
probably be a bit less this summer due to family commitments. I think
we've slept at the dock 2 nights in the last 5 years. Much (probably
most, in the summer) of my boat work is when we're on a mooring.
While traveling for a year there were only a few nights when I started
thinking A/C might be nice, but a wind chute actually does work for
creating a healthy breeze (assuming you have an overhead hatch, which
you don't).

Tuesday was heat wave here, I read 99 degrees a short distance from
the marina. I spent 3 hours mid-day doing plumbing and carpentry in
the head. Yes, it was hot but I just stepped into the shower for a
quick rinse to "test my work." Also, I could of just jumped off my
boat for a dip, but that's not always a good option where you are.

I can however, see why even the small powerboats around me have A/C -
they have almost no ventilation. And if I lived aboard dockside I
would probably get it. The odd thing about your A/C obsession is that
is an easy addition to almost any boat. You talk like your boat is
superior because it was designed for A/C. I claim its inferior
because it needs A/C. (Otherwise, it would be Horrific!)




I'm glad you have one.

Us too. Everyone told us it was worthwhile and they were right. A
genset will probably be next.

That way you can be the most hated boat in the anchorage. I guess
that compliments your image.



But whats the big deal? I could add one for a few thousand bucks,
its
not like they're not allowed on some boats, its that most sailors
don't want them.

Proper A/C and install on my boat cost more than a few thousand bucks.
And on your boat it would be VERY expensive to do a proper install.

The quote I got (from the high end guys who travel from RI) was $4-5K,
more if I wanted to chill all of the cabins all of the time. However,
there was nothing they were doing that is beyond my skill set, and its
actually fairly simple though includes enough plumbing, wiring, and
carpentry that most owners would not want to do it themselves. I
figure under $2K in parts and a few day's work to put in one unit to
chill the saloon, galley and owners' stateroom. My boat actually has
a spot under the saloon seat and backing onto the owners' bunk with a
nearby water inlet that was left for A/C and/or a water maker. BTW,
it would raise my marina bill about $400 a year. Just to make it a
bit nicer on a couple of heat wave days? I don't think so!


Did
you know that a climate control system will even prolong the interior
life of your boat, cut mildew ad mold and create a healthier setting in
general?

Oddly, We've had almost no mildew, virtually none in the living areas.
Must be the good ventilation. I do remember being startled when a
mega-yacht captain told me "This boat would die in a month if it
didn't have A/C." This is why they need redundant gensets and A/C.



just don't need that tippy feeling to have fun.

Jeff, the range of motion of a monhull is PART of the appeal for many
people. No one "get's over it" until their knees give out. When Heart
of Gold heels to 15% and slices upwind, her headstay clipping the
setting sun, it's all smiles. Aboard your cat it would feel like
standing on a dock. No thanks!

What ever you say. On the odd occasion that we get knocked more than
5 degrees I get yells from the galley that dinner will be ruined if I
keep that up. On the other hand, when we're doing 9 knots and the
guest are sun-bathing on the trampoline a few feet above the rushing
water, its all smile too. But at the end of the day we've done 80
miles and our knees haven't given out.

Yes, I agree heeling can be fun for a while, but the excitement wears
off on a 36 hour passage. And rolling in an anchorage loses it
excitement in about 3.6 seconds.



RB - too much of a coward to apologize for his
erroneous "series of attacks started by you" comments
35s5
NY