Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

While you all posted we TRIED to sail....

Well....the header sounds exciting, but we had a very dull sail. Late
in the morning I sewed some threads through my baton pockets.
Previously one had been thrown, so I wanted to nip that. My new main
won't be ready until Mid September. Working on the main, the sun was
nasty, but I could see a fair amount of boats out enjoying some wind.
Back at home I checked the weather. Everything said 10 knots or so
online and on the radio and as we recrossed the bridge there were still
a lot of boats out.
30 minutes later we were sitting in a steaming pond with absolutely no
wind. Everyone's sails were hanging limp. Dead. Calm. Yuk.
"Don't worry" I told everyone, "We'll get something as the sun sets."
Well, we usually do, but not this time. I mean nothing, zilch, nada.
Back at our slip we set up our new dinghy, "Thom's Turtle" and 8 HP
Yamaha, played with that for a while. We'll use it next weekend when we
go to Oyster Bay to meet two other boats.
So, the great 35s5 cannot sail without wind. You heard it here first.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote ...
While you all posted we TRIED to sail....

keep trying, maybe one day you'll figure it out.

SBV

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

Late
in the morning I sewed some threads through my baton pockets.

You must be one of those wild, animated conductors. Do you break many during
a performance?


--
Capt Scumbalino

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
While you all posted we TRIED to sail....



.. Late
in the morning I sewed some threads through my baton pockets.
Previously one had been thrown, so I wanted to nip that.

Thats nothing, here three are thrown at once!
http://www.juggle.org/archives/jw/im...-3/39-3,p6.jpg

Joe


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

I'm disappointed Bob. Just a few days ago you were chastising
everyone for not getting out there in light air and drizzle and
practicing.

Back when I was learning the fine points of light air racing, if a
regatta was postponed because of no air, we would go out and practice
kinetic racing. The first skill to be mastered is sculling the
rudder. Every dinghy sailor knows how to do this vigorously, but a
gentle motion will also propel the boat, and is not as noticeable.
Then one learns the fast jibe, which done properly will shoot a boat
forward a boatlength or more. And finally, one has to master the roll
tack for going upwind. This is the most advanced basic skill, done
done properly by a co-ordinated crew, can get a small boat up to a few
knots. Combining all of these, we would attempt to "continue" the
regatta, much to the horror of the race committee. (Frankly this was
a good education for them, because many had learned to sail in the
'30s before such techniques were well understood.)

But, you say, isn't this just for small boats? Not really, I've used
all of them on keel boats, including propelling my Nonsuch downwind by
repeated jibing. I'm sure that you could have approached hull speed
by roll tacking your Benny.

Capt. Rob wrote:
While you all posted we TRIED to sail....

Well....the header sounds exciting, but we had a very dull sail. Late
in the morning I sewed some threads through my baton pockets.
Previously one had been thrown, so I wanted to nip that. My new main
won't be ready until Mid September. Working on the main, the sun was
nasty, but I could see a fair amount of boats out enjoying some wind.
Back at home I checked the weather. Everything said 10 knots or so
online and on the radio and as we recrossed the bridge there were still
a lot of boats out.
30 minutes later we were sitting in a steaming pond with absolutely no
wind. Everyone's sails were hanging limp. Dead. Calm. Yuk.
"Don't worry" I told everyone, "We'll get something as the sun sets."
Well, we usually do, but not this time. I mean nothing, zilch, nada.
Back at our slip we set up our new dinghy, "Thom's Turtle" and 8 HP
Yamaha, played with that for a while. We'll use it next weekend when we
go to Oyster Bay to meet two other boats.
So, the great 35s5 cannot sail without wind. You heard it here first.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

I'm sure that you could have approached hull speed
by roll tacking your Benny.


Ya know...funny you should say that...we used to pull those moves on a
J24 that had no outboard. I never really thought of it with a bigger
boat. My engines have generally worked if we couldn't sail.

RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Cabin boy. Rob wrote:
My engines have generally worked if we couldn't sail.

So you are admitting you have an under powered motor sailor?
That you motor when no wind is around...Tisk...tisk.....tisk..

Buy a trawler!

Capt. Joe



RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

So you are admitting you have an under powered motor sailor?
That you motor when no wind is around...Tisk...tisk.....tisk..


Yup...we motored yesterday for 20 minutes or so. That may be as muich
as an hour of motoring all season so far.
I don't think you really know the difference between a sailboat and a
motorsailor, Joe.



RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

"Swab Rob" wrote

My engines have generally worked so we don't sail.

RB
35s5
NY


Oiy!

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
Jeff,

He's not reporting light wind, he's reporting NO wind. How successfull were you
at propelling your Nonesuch in no wind by roll tacking when single handing?
The techniques I described work best when there's no wind. After all,
you can go infinitely faster!

And I never said I rolled tacked the Nonsuch. But we were able to
move it by jibing vigorously.


What is the minimum wind you need to move your PDQ at a reasonalble speed? Does
roll tacking help?

The PDQ is not a speed demon in light air. I'm sure RB's boat could
beat me in 6 knots. However, not by much. The Polar says at 6 knots
of true wind, she'll do 4.6 at 51 degrees (for a VMG of 2.9) and 6.3
knots with the chute up at 90 degrees. Over 10 knots a PDQ 36 setup
for racing (i.e. not mine) would walk away from from a 35s5, even upwind.

And she doesn't seem to respond well to my roll tacking efforts. I
guess I've lost a few pounds.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
He's not reporting light wind, he's reporting NO wind.

Sort of like the difference between a small weak brain, and
NO brain.

... How successfull
were you
at propelling your Nonesuch in no wind by roll tacking when single
handing?

Jeff wrote:
The techniques I described work best when there's no wind.


Anybody with the slightest amount of skill in this knows
that. Guess where Boobsie and/or Bitty-Bill fall on tha curve?

... After all,
you can go infinitely faster!


Not only that, you can aim the boat in any direction you like.

And I never said I rolled tacked the Nonsuch. But we were able to move
it by jibing vigorously.


You could roll tack it, if you got several people to move
their weight together with enough coordination. It's not
really that difficult, I've roll tacked lots of different
boats from Sunfish up to 40' keel boats. A light narrow boat
like an Olson 30 can be roll-tacked (or rocked) handily.



What is the minimum wind you need to move your PDQ at a reasonalble
speed? Does
roll tacking help?


The PDQ is not a speed demon in light air.

Relatively few catamarans are, but then does anybody expect
BillyJane to know that?



And she doesn't seem to respond well to my roll tacking efforts. I
guess I've lost a few pounds.

That must be it. Plus, you'd spill your drink and that would
never do.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Over 10 knots a PDQ 36 setup
for racing (i.e. not mine) would walk away from from a 35s5, even
upwind.



What do your polars say for 16 knots at 35%, Jeff? Or thereabouts.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

In 16 Knots
At 36 degrees: 5.5 knots, VMG 4.5
optimal at 43 7.6 knots VMG 5.5
between 60 and 135 over 9 knots, max of 10.6

I don't know what the 35s5 polars are, but the hot Farr designed First
40.7 with a PHRF under 60:
At 38 degrees 6.82 knots VMG 5.37
max reaching speed 8.89 but mostly under 8
http://www.ciaracing.com/ben40.7_additional_polars.htm

So the 40.7 can outpoint the PDQ by 5 degrees, but the VMG is a bit
less. And reaching would be a horizon job. And to do this, I only
have to carry 60% of the sail area. And I don't spill my drink.

Of course, I don't think I want to get in a tacking duel. And these
polars were for the outboard version, not the diesel. But before I
loaded my boat for cruising (hard dink, kayak, machine shop, etc.) I
would see a sustained 11 knots reaching in 20, whereas the predicted
is 12. The highest sustained I've seen in 13.5, but in recent years
its only been over 10 knots a few times.

So what do the 35s5 polars say?


Capt. Rob wrote:
Over 10 knots a PDQ 36 setup
for racing (i.e. not mine) would walk away from from a 35s5, even
upwind.
6


What do your polars say for 16 knots at 35%, Jeff? Or thereabouts.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

In 16 Knots
At 36 degrees: 5.5 knots, VMG 4.5
optimal at 43 7.6 knots VMG 5.5
between 60 and 135 over 9 knots, max of 10.6



In 16 knots at 35% the 35s5 polars claim 6.3 knots, but with VMG of
just 4.897 knots, only slightly faster than your cat upwind and drinks
WILL fly! Optimum run is 7.6 knots, but as you know the 35s5 easily
tops this, though never with the ease of your cat.
The 35s5 polar chart show VMG of over 4 knots to something close to 30%
and I have not been able to sail that high with my sails. More like 40%
most of the time.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Why are you so obsessed with the pointing angle when by footing off
you go so much faster? With the exception of race tacticians, no one
wants to point higher than than the optimum tacking angle. You can
keep pinching and doing 4 knots good upwind, I'll foot off to around
50 degrees and get upwind 20% faster. Even at 60 degrees true my vmg
is up at 4.65 with actual boatspeed of over 9 knots! So you can sheet
in tight and pinch up, I'll ease off and fly away, and stil beat you
upwind!




Capt. Rob wrote:
In 16 Knots
At 36 degrees: 5.5 knots, VMG 4.5
optimal at 43 7.6 knots VMG 5.5
between 60 and 135 over 9 knots, max of 10.6



In 16 knots at 35% the 35s5 polars claim 6.3 knots, but with VMG of
just 4.897 knots, only slightly faster than your cat upwind and drinks
WILL fly! Optimum run is 7.6 knots, but as you know the 35s5 easily
tops this, though never with the ease of your cat.
The 35s5 polar chart show VMG of over 4 knots to something close to 30%
and I have not been able to sail that high with my sails. More like 40%
most of the time.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Why are you so obsessed with the pointing angle when by footing off
you go so much faster?


I'm not obsessed with it, but I enjoy seeing how close to the wind I
can get a boat to make effective VMG. Jeff, even after 12 years of
owning boats I'm still amazed at what they can do and never take it for
granted.
When we're out sailing and really playing with the boat, that means
generally trying all points of sail rather than trying to get to a
destination...it's not always about highest VMG. We're mostly out there
to play and relax.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

Why are you so obsessed with the pointing angle when by footing off
you go so much faster?


I'm not obsessed with it, but I enjoy seeing how close to the wind I
can get a boat to make effective VMG.

No, you've mentioned dozens of time that various boats point well or
don't point well, while you almost never mention VMG. I always
thought you were just making the newbie mistake of saying "points
well" when you really mean "doesn't go upwind well" but it seems you
don't really appreciate the difference.

Jeff, even after 12 years of
owning boats I'm still amazed at what they can do and never take it for
granted.

Sounds like you haven't really learned much. You should try racing.

When we're out sailing and really playing with the boat, that means
generally trying all points of sail rather than trying to get to a
destination...it's not always about highest VMG. We're mostly out there
to play and relax.

Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.




RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Jeff wrote:
.... you want a boat the
gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly handled.

Actually that sounds like it could be fun.

OTOH it's also nice to have a boat that really scoots when
well handled, and lets you know what it likes.

DSK

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote
Jeff, even after 12 years of
owning boats I'm still amazed at what they can do but
never
figured out HOW to do it.


--
RB.''One who never gets out of the Sound cannot, with any
degree of
credibility, comment on the courage of fellow sailors''

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 16:09:10 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Capt. Rob wrote:
Why are you so obsessed with the pointing angle when by footing off
you go so much faster?


I'm not obsessed with it, but I enjoy seeing how close to the wind I
can get a boat to make effective VMG.
No, you've mentioned dozens of time that various boats point well or
don't point well, while you almost never mention VMG. I always
thought you were just making the newbie mistake of saying "points
well" when you really mean "doesn't go upwind well" but it seems you
don't really appreciate the difference.

Jeff, even after 12 years of
owning boats I'm still amazed at what they can do and never take it for
granted.
Sounds like you haven't really learned much. You should try racing.

When we're out sailing and really playing with the boat, that means
generally trying all points of sail rather than trying to get to a
destination...it's not always about highest VMG. We're mostly out there
to play and relax.
Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.



Jeff,

Is it at all possible that a boat that can point higher can also gain more VMG
by footing off LESS than a boat that doesn't point as high? All other things
being equal, that would allow them to go just as fast without covering as much
ground.

Yes its possible. Each boat is different. In this case, both RB's
and my boat will gain VMG by footing off. However, the optimal point
for the 35s5 is maybe 38 degrees with a VMG of 5.2 (I'm guessing)
while mine is 43 with a VMG of 5.5. I can foot off another 8 degrees
and accelerate better in puffs and still go upwind faster.


BTW, my sailboat is a lot faster than Bobsprits. I'm sure of it!

No doubt, but it can't point as well.


CWM

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.



Ah well, for a moment I was under the impression Jeff was capable of an
actual sailing discussion. Nope. He flipped it into a troll.
The fun of sailing for you is all about getting somewhere. For us it's
the sailing. That's why we'd never buy a dull Cat like yours.
And I must say your the first "sailor" I ever heard talk about VMG
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability. You choose to
foot off for better speed, while some will hand off speed to pinch. You
talk like footing off is the only way to sail. Just like Doug thinks
his trawler is the only way to sail. Just like Sloco is locked into his
little racing world.

RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

DSK wrote:
Jeff wrote:
.... you want a boat the
gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly handled.

Actually that sounds like it could be fun.


Yeh, I was thinking of all the playing around I did just to show off
in my youth - single handing from the trapeze on a Tempest, for
instance. Or feathering upwind rather than really pushing, because
all I was after was the the big gust to take us downwind. The real
racers probably winced at my antics, but I had fun. My point is,
though, one should understand the difference.


OTOH it's also nice to have a boat that really scoots when well handled,
and lets you know what it likes.

Its funny, most of the time we don't think about it - we just got used
to doing 7-9 knots instead of 5-7, and we don't worry much about
getting in before dark. But every now and then I notice we've been
doing 10+ knots for a while and I remember this is a bit different
from the old Nonsuch.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Each boat is different. In this case, both RB's
and my boat will gain VMG by footing off. However, the optimal point
for the 35s5 is maybe 38 degrees with a VMG of 5.2 (I'm guessing)
while mine is 43 with a VMG of 5.5.


At 38 degrees the 35s5 shows 6.4 knots with a VMG of 5.855. I expect
that Donal's 33.7 points a bit better than my boat and I think you're
underselling the performance of the First Series boats, which is well
regarded.
In addition, if I'm heading home on a port tack, about to come around
an obstacle, I will well apreciate the 35s5's pointing ability and 5.8
knots is just fine. I'm sitting there, holding the big wheel, little
Thomas at my side. I'd like to just hold my course, clear the obstacle
and keep on sailing. You would have me fall off, gather speed, tack,
blah blah. What's the hurry all the time? Just SAIL and use the boat's
pointing potential from time to time.
Boats that can point better are just more fun, or as someone a lot
smarter than me wrote,

"The boat with greater directional control is usually thought to be the
better design."

Suitability is everything...something Jeff doesn't seem to understand.
I've already sailing the 35s5 across a series of days where the PDQ
would have crawled by comparison, though Jeff readily admits he motors
in such conditions.
Here we are again, Jeff. Hope you're happy!


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Jeff wrote:
Yeh, I was thinking of all the playing around I did just to show off in
my youth - single handing from the trapeze on a Tempest, for instance.
Or feathering upwind rather than really pushing, because all I was after
was the the big gust to take us downwind. The real racers probably
winced at my antics, but I had fun. My point is, though, one should
understand the difference.


Yeah sure... and also, it takes some skill to do these kinds
of show-off moves; and by pushing the boat to do unlikely
things you learn more about how boats behave.



OTOH it's also nice to have a boat that really scoots when well
handled, and lets you know what it likes.


Its funny, most of the time we don't think about it - we just got used
to doing 7-9 knots instead of 5-7, and we don't worry much about getting
in before dark. But every now and then I notice we've been doing 10+
knots for a while and I remember this is a bit different from the old
Nonsuch.


One of the things I have not liked about multis is the lack
of feel. Usually the helm is more of a brake and the sails
looks to be oversheeted... then you notice that if you ease,
the boat slows down. It may just be that I have never worked
at developing reflexes appropriate to sailing a multi; but I
also wonder if it's not one of the reason why some sailors
flip big cats... no message getting thru that something bad
is about to happen.

With regard to the issue of VMG, polars are usually drawn up
either from VPPs or from the flattest water testing
available over a long period of time. Boats will go best at
significantly lower angles (ie pointed further away from the
wind) as chop & waves build up.

On glassy flat water, a Lightning can tack thru a smidge
less than 70 degrees while tearing along. It feels almost
like going straight upwind and makes those
off-the-start-line pinching contests really impressive. I'd
like to try it with an Etchells!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.

Ah well, for a moment I was under the impression Jeff was capable of an
actual sailing discussion. Nope. He flipped it into a troll.

No, I'm chastising you for using your ignorance as a platform for
criticizing other boats.

The fun of sailing for you is all about getting somewhere. For us it's
the sailing. That's why we'd never buy a dull Cat like yours.
And I must say your the first "sailor" I ever heard talk about VMG
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.

Then you haven't talked to sailors. Pointing is of interest to round
the buoys racers because of the tactical situations involved. And the
best racers are in one-design, where each boat has the same
theoretical VMG, so making the boat point better than others is of
some value. But, when one talks about open water sailing and upwind
capability, pointing is meaningless and VMG is the measure of upwind
performance.

You choose to
foot off for better speed, while some will hand off speed to pinch. You
talk like footing off is the only way to sail.

Being able to gain VMG while footing off is a blessing only some boats
enjoy. Knowing when to do it is an important skill. Pinching is also
a useful skill but I find rather few situations where its useful.

Just like Doug thinks
his trawler is the only way to sail. Just like Sloco is locked into his
little racing world.


Right. Just like you define upwind performance by how high a boat can
point rather than how well it actually goes upwind.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Each boat is different. In this case, both RB's
and my boat will gain VMG by footing off. However, the optimal point
for the 35s5 is maybe 38 degrees with a VMG of 5.2 (I'm guessing)
while mine is 43 with a VMG of 5.5.


At 38 degrees the 35s5 shows 6.4 knots with a VMG of 5.855.

No - those numbers don't compute. The 6.4 is reasonable, but that
implies VMG of 5.04. And remember the 40.7 only does 6.8 at 38 degrees.

I expect
that Donal's 33.7 points a bit better than my boat and I think you're
underselling the performance of the First Series boats, which is well
regarded.

I'm not underselling, I'm quoting the polars of the 40.7. I gather
Beneteau is so proud (rightfully so) of them that they're posted next
to the helm on every boat. In light air the 40.7 clearly beats the
PDQ, by as much as 20%, but that evens up at around 10 knots. At 12
knots the cat pulls ahead and at higher winds its faster a almost
every point of sail.

In addition, if I'm heading home on a port tack, about to come around
an obstacle, I will well apreciate the 35s5's pointing ability and 5.8
knots is just fine. I'm sitting there, holding the big wheel, little
Thomas at my side. I'd like to just hold my course, clear the obstacle
and keep on sailing. You would have me fall off, gather speed, tack,
blah blah. What's the hurry all the time? Just SAIL and use the boat's
pointing potential from time to time.

You're really quibbling over a few degrees, and a few tenths of a
knot. A cat will point almost as high as a mono, its just not worth
it because it goes so much faster by footing off. Yes, a mono may
shoot around an obstacle a bit better. I suppose in your mind that's
a good reason to chose a boat.


Boats that can point better are just more fun, or as someone a lot
smarter than me wrote,

Boats that do 12 knots with little effort are fun. You're just
infatuated about pointing because you learned about it this year.



"The boat with greater directional control is usually thought to be the
better design."

??? And this means what, that fin keel boat are bad because they
need help to have any control?


Suitability is everything...something Jeff doesn't seem to understand.
I've already sailing the 35s5 across a series of days where the PDQ
would have crawled by comparison, though Jeff readily admits he motors
in such conditions.

I've said many times that your boat is a reasonable choice for light
air, flat water, day sailing. The rest of us have real boats for the
real world.

Here we are again, Jeff. Hope you're happy!

I'll be happier on Saturday, when we're on our way to the Vineyard.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Yes, a mono may
shoot around an obstacle a bit better. I suppose in your mind that's
a good reason to chose a boat.



That's one reason. Others are she has to please my eye, she must be fun
to sail in most conditions, even in light air, she has to be
comfortable on deck and below...and since we're a few years from having
much more time to sail, she need not cost over 100K.
You'll note that your PDQ fails in every respect and you really don't
find them often on the LIS, which I'm sure you know is a well loved and
famous sailing ground. If I was to be 100% honest, I'd probably have to
admit that the ugly lines of Catamarans are just too much for me to
deal with. I wouldn't marry an ugly woman and I won't sail an ugly
boat. I'm happy for you that you could get past this problem, but for
many people it's a real problem.

Sorry, Jeff. Your boat just doesn't cut it here. Frankly, because she's
a bore to sail in general, she really doesn't cut it for me anywhere.
She ranks right up there with motorsailors and trawlers.
Nothing you can say, no polars or stories of her practicality can ease
the pain that she is on a sailors eyes or the dullness of her flat
helm. Our 35s5 feels like flying...and we love her for it. We don't
want a vessel that takes away the feel of sailing. Maybe we need to
grow up...or maybe we hope we never will!!!!

RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.


Then you haven't talked to sailors.


Read Thom's post, Jeff. He's far older and wiser than you. If there's
any definition of a sailor that remotely holds fast, it's a person who
earns money on the water. I'm one of the few people here doing that.
Folks who race are also sailors. My good friend races J-Boats and also
does Atlantic crossings at least once a year. He's very impressed by
boats that can point racing or not. He's also pretty impressed with the
handling of my 35s5 and even more so with the 36.7 he races on. Like
most serious sailors, he has no interest in Cats. They have no
traditional appeal, no romance and truly little fun factor in most
situations.
Jeff, you were the kid who watched others play and thought they were
"doing it wrong." I know your type quite well. If you were at peace
with your boat, you'd be able to accept how happy with are with her.
But the fact is that my boat upsets you. You KNOW she's fast and fun.
You KNOW we don't need a dinghy for that "sailing feel" that you must
hunt for elsewhere. You KNOW your boat is essentially a very well built
practical cruising platform that is virtually souless.
But it was your choice, Jeff. Just as it was Doug's choice to buy a
powerboat. There's really nothing left for you to be critical of
outside of your own mistakes. If we've made any we're simply having too
much fun to notice.
And I truly hope you actually get some enjoyment out of the PDQ, Jeff,
of some sort or another.

Live with it, Jeff. Move on.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.


Then you haven't talked to sailors.


Read Thom's post, Jeff. He's far older and wiser than you.

He may be wiser but he's not that much older.

If there's
any definition of a sailor that remotely holds fast, it's a person who
earns money on the water. I'm one of the few people here doing that.

No you don't. I made money on the water, for longer than you've been
sailing. You sell a few tired boats and scrap gear.

Folks who race are also sailors.

I raced for a number of years, even have some silver.

My good friend races J-Boats and also
does Atlantic crossings at least once a year. He's very impressed by
boats that can point racing or not. He's also pretty impressed with the
handling of my 35s5 and even more so with the 36.7 he races on.

What's his name, JaxAshby? You sound like a complete idiot, ranting
that you have a friend that likes your boat. What a Doophus!! So
what's your point, he's a racer who happens to like your club racer.
If you actually raced it, it might have some meaning.

Like
most serious sailors, he has no interest in Cats.

So? I have a friend who has no interest in Beneteaus. He thinks they
really suck. (Really, and he's one of the most respected surveyors on
the East Coast. He calls them "bend-in-twos.")


They have no
traditional appeal, no romance and truly little fun factor in most
situations.

That's why they're the fastest growing segment of the boating industry.


Jeff, you were the kid who watched others play and thought they were
"doing it wrong." I know your type quite well. If you were at peace
with your boat, you'd be able to accept how happy with are with her.
But the fact is that my boat upsets you.

I point out that pinching is not the same as VMG and you claim its all
because of jealously. I never said anything about your boat at all, I
just think its pretty lame to criticize a boat because its a quarter
knot slower when pinched 10 degrees past its optimal VMG. Especially
when its a faster boat even upwind. This seems to have sent you into
a Temper Tantrum. Suzy will have her hands full with two babies going
through the terrible twos at the same time.


You KNOW she's fast and fun.

Yes, I'm sure it is. However, when I want fast and fun I'd rather
take a 470.

You KNOW we don't need a dinghy for that "sailing feel" that you must
hunt for elsewhere.

Must I? You must know I keep a sailing dinghy hanging in davits and a
kayak on the rail. I just like to use them in neat spots like
Penobscot Bay. I can have my cake and eat it too, all you get are
Ding-Dongs.

You KNOW your boat is essentially a very well built
practical cruising platform

that's true. Yup, that what I wanted, the perfect cruising boat. And
that's what we got. You wanted the perfect light air, flat water day
sailor with a 7 foot bunk that you'll take on two overnights a year,
and maybe thats what you got.

that is virtually souless.

I didn't know you were so religious.

But it was your choice, Jeff. Just as it was Doug's choice to buy a
powerboat. There's really nothing left for you to be critical of
outside of your own mistakes. If we've made any we're simply having too
much fun to notice.

Our cat has taken us from the Great Lakes to Maine to the Florida Keys
and back, in comfort and safety. Now we're only doing about 7-8 weeks
a summer on board, but in a few years we'll head out again. You're
right, that doesn't sound like fun.

What's going on here is that you can't stand the fact that someone
else in the group has a bigger, faster, prettier, more comfortable,
and just plain better boat than you. And it actually gets used to go
cruising, something that seems to scare the crap out of of you.
Frankly, I think that Scotty, DSK, and all the others have more fun on
their boats than you can ever understand, and it shows in the raw
jealousy that drips out of everyone of your posts.


And I truly hope you actually get some enjoyment out of the PDQ, Jeff,
of some sort or another.

You can only dream about cruising, everyone else here actually does it.


Live with it, Jeff. Move on.

Yup. In a few days we're moving on about 150 miles to the Vineyard.
Maybe Cuttyhunk. Maybe over to Block or Narragansett. Wherever the
wind takes us.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

I point out that pinching is not the same as VMG and you claim its
all
because of jealously. I never said anything about your boat at all, I
just think its pretty lame to criticize a boat because its a quarter
knot slower when pinched 10 degrees past its optimal VMG. Especially
when its a faster boat even upwind. This seems to have sent you into
a Temper Tantrum.

Stop it. Your confusing him.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote

In addition, if I'm heading home on a port tack, about to
come around
an obstacle,

like a charted rock ?



I'm sitting there, like a truck driver, holding the big
wheel, little
Thomas at my side. I'd like to just hold my course, HIT
the obstacle
and keep on sailing.

Oiy!

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

"Jeff" wrote

You wanted the perfect light air, flat water day
sailor with a 7 foot bunk that you'll take on two
overnights a year,


A Mac 26 X would be perfect for that!

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote

I wouldn't marry an ugly woman


That sums up the ****head rather nicely, eh?


--
Scotty.....''One who never gets out of the Sound cannot,
with any degree of
credibility, comment on the courage of fellow sailors''

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Jeff wrote:
No, I'm chastising you for using your ignorance as a platform for
criticizing other boats.


But it's the only basis he has to work from.


You choose to
foot off for better speed, while some will hand off speed to pinch. You
talk like footing off is the only way to sail.


No, Jeff talks about choosing which of the two is better for
a given situation; and knowing the difference between the
components of VMG and VMG.


Being able to gain VMG while footing off is a blessing only some boats
enjoy.

No, there's a range in which any boat will gain VMG by
bearing away: any time the bow is pointed above optimum VMG
for the conditions. There's the key, knowing how the given
boat responds to conditions.


Just like Doug thinks
his trawler is the only way to sail.

When did I say that? Quote please!


Right. Just like you define upwind performance by how high a boat can
point rather than how well it actually goes upwind.

Well, that's an improvement. Bubles used to define "upwind
performance" by what it said in the advertising brochure.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

and knowing the difference between the
components of VMG and VMG.


Well said, Doug. You sure know what you're talking about.
My boat outpoints Jeffs. Period. And it's better in the light suff of
the LIS. Perior. And it's more fun to sail. Period.
And Jeff actually agrees with all of this. So without being critical of
how I sail, what exactly is your point???
Uh oh!


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

"Capt" Rob wrote:
Well said, Doug. You sure know what you're talking about.

Of course.

My boat outpoints Jeffs. Period.

But when does it make better VMG?

And Jeff actually agrees with all of this.

Really?

.... So without being critical of
how I sail

Oh, I don't criticise *how* you sail, just doubtful that you
actually know diddley-squat about boats or sailing.

... what exactly is your point???

That you're nuts, Bubbles.

DSK

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

But when does it make better VMG?


In light air. We already established this. Jeff then claimed he could
foot off and get there faster, but that is not what we're talking
about. My VMG at 35% in 16 knots his better than his. Period.


Oh, I don't criticise *how* you sail, just doubtful that you
actually know diddley-squat about boats or sailing.

Well...I think you're actually lying, but okay.


That you're nuts, Bubbles.

This is news?


RB
35s5
NY

Jeff won on all counts!
 

Its not even worth addressing your stupidity point by point.

But a few things:
I only mentioned my friend who doesn't like Bennys to mock the
stupidity of saying "I have a friend who doesn't like cats." That has
to rank as one of the lamest thing ever posted here, by anyone other
than jaxie.

You're trying to claim that I changed this from a "sailing discussion"
to an attack on boating styles, but the record is very clear that I
was merely criticizing your use of pointing ability rather than VMG to
measure upwind performance. When you realized your blunder, you
started in with the personal attacks. You lost it on technical
grounds, then you lost it on personal grounds.

You can rant and rave about how your boat "looks better to you" but I
think its one ugly sailboat, compared to most other monohulls. And
most catamaran lovers think the PDQ 36 is one of the prettiest cats
ever built. And you can rant and rave about your boat being fast, but
mine is faster on all points of sail, including upwind, in over 10
knots. So if you can find some comfort that your boat is faster in a
a drifter, be my guest. And if you think you're beating another boat
just because you can pinch to 30 true, you're entitled to your delusions.

As for my small fleet that we carry with us, you're just making it
abundantly clear to everyone that you know nothing of cruising. But
in a few days we'll be anchored in a beautiful cove and a couple of
kids will be having a blast on our small boats.

Capt. Rob wrote:
Jeff, few people here are as dumb as you....perhaps Scotty has tripped
up more. So here we go!



No you don't. I made money on the water, for longer than you've been
sailing. You sell a few tired boats and scrap gear.

Make stuff up till you turn blue. I do in fact make money on the water.
You don't, at least not any more.

most serious sailors, he has no interest in Cats.
So? I have a friend who has no interest in Beneteaus.

Notice how Jeff is carefull to say Beneteau and not monohuls as his
buddies here sail real boats. I'm not condemming PDQ, just Cats in
general for being boring.


That's why they're the fastest growing segment of the boating industry.

Yep, PDQ, Mac26x and FAST FOOD are all popular. The PDQ sails flat and
with little fuss. The sails can be handled by older, weaker arms. And
you don't have to do much work to sail it. Sadly, that's what many
Americans want these days.


Jeff, you were the kid who watched others play and thought they were
"doing it wrong." I know your type quite well. If you were at peace
with your boat, you'd be able to accept how happy with are with her.
But the fact is that my boat upsets you.

Jeff ignores the above. It draws attention to the fact that he's trying
to make this debate about how I use my boat. But I'm not letting him.
This is about the BOAT and Jeff's cat is a dull one. Nothing will
change that.

Yes, I'm sure it is. However, when I want fast and fun I'd rather
take a 470.

With 6 people on a 5 hour dinner sail? The point is that many of the
monohulls here can give "fast and fun" and still lay back for some nice
BBQ on the back rail. Your PDQ can only BBQ. AND YOU JUST ADMITTED IT
BY SAYING FOR FAST AND FUN YOU LOOK TO ANOTHER BOAT. JEFF, YOU JUST
LOST.


Must I? You must know I keep a sailing dinghy hanging in davits and a
kayak on the rail.

Jeff, you're one dopey guy. Now your telling is that you CARRY a fast
and fun boat on the back of your Cat!!! So we can now see how dull a
ride the cat really is. You've made my case. JEFF, YOU JUST LOST.



that's true. Yup, that what I wanted, the perfect cruising boat. And
that's what we got.


Yeah, but perfect for you meant you need to carry a second boat for
fun. Others here seem to have found ONE boat for that!


You wanted the perfect light air, flat water day
sailor with a 7 foot bunk


Does Jeff really think a 35s5 can't handle real weather or is he just
attacking ME again?


I didn't know you were so religious.


It isn't about religion. It's about lines and character. Your boat is
about as nautically appealing as a food processor. And after owning a
Nonsuch, I think you're well aware of that fact.


Our cat has taken us from the Great Lakes to Maine to the Florida Keys
and back, in comfort and safety. Now we're only doing about 7-8 weeks
a summer on board, but in a few years we'll head out again. You're
right, that doesn't sound like fun.


Golly!!! We're all impressed with your voyages! But we're talking
BOATS, Jeff.


What's going on here is that you can't stand the fact that someone
else in the group has a bigger, faster, prettier, more comfortable,
and just plain better boat than you.


There is a C&C 36XL at my club. It's faster and prettier and more
comfortable. Your boat is as far from mine as Doug's trawler. Because
we enjoy sailing there is just no way a cat would be considered so long
as we have our health.


And it actually gets used to go
cruising, something that seems to scare the crap out of of you.


Boo!


Frankly, I think that Scotty, DSK, and all the others have more fun on
their boats than you can ever understand, and it shows in the raw
jealousy that drips out of everyone of your posts.

Frankly, you don't know them or me! I actually assume that we ALL have
fun on our boats. But you've proven me wrong by letting us all know
that for fast and fun you CARRY a SECOND boat.

You can only dream about cruising, everyone else here actually does it.

Uh, Jeff. I don't dream of cruising. I like daysailing and short
cruises with friends and family best. It does seem that YOU are
dreaming of me dreaming of cruising. And that's disturbing!


Wherever the
wind takes us.

Don't forget the fast and fun dinghy!


RB
35s5
NY

Jeff won on all counts!
 

only mentioned my friend who doesn't like Bennys to mock the
stupidity of saying "I have a friend who doesn't like cats."


You invented a friend. Not even a bad surveyor would make a sweeping
comment about Beneteau when they build such a range of boats at all
levels over so many years. Anyone could see that lie a mile away.

You're trying to claim that I changed this from a "sailing
discussion"
to an attack on boating styles, but the record is very clear

Sorry, Jeff, but some people CAN READ. After we discussed sculling and
moving a boat with no air, you wrote this:

So you are admitting you have an under powered motor sailor?
That you motor when no wind is around...Tisk...tisk.....tisk..

It was out of the blue and the trolling began in earnest. Busted AGAIN,
Jeff. Clearly you're very threatened.


When you realized your blunder, you
started in with the personal attacks. You lost it on technical
grounds, then you lost it on personal grounds.

The 1st personal attack on my sailing is above and I made no blunder as
I merely typed what is on the polars. VMG and knots are listed
seperately, Jeff....of do you really even have the polars for your
boat?


You can rant and rave about how your boat "looks better to you"


Bwahahahahha! Now this one is pretty funny. The number one thing people
don't like about cats is how they look; comes up in any discussion
about them!

most catamaran lovers think the PDQ 36 is one of the prettiest
cats


Hey, and amongst the Mole People, Danny Devito is a real hunk!


but mine is faster on all points of sail, including upwind, in over
10
knots.

But on the LIS under 10 knots is common, so your boat is a dog here.
It's also ugly, fat, requires TWO engines, has no AC and is a total
dull ride by your own admission. I don't care if you sail it beneath
the planet of the apes, it's still a borrrriiing boat.


As for my small fleet that we carry with us, you're just making it
abundantly clear to everyone that you know nothing of cruising.

There are quite a few cruising boats at City Island. Most don't need to
lug second sailboat to fill in for their dull cruisers.

Can someone order a second pooch for Joe to screw??? BWAHAHAHAHHAHA!


RB
35s5
NY

Jeff flies off the handle in under 10 knots!
 

You can rant and rave



Oh the humanity!



RB
35s5
NY