Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.



Ah well, for a moment I was under the impression Jeff was capable of an
actual sailing discussion. Nope. He flipped it into a troll.
The fun of sailing for you is all about getting somewhere. For us it's
the sailing. That's why we'd never buy a dull Cat like yours.
And I must say your the first "sailor" I ever heard talk about VMG
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability. You choose to
foot off for better speed, while some will hand off speed to pinch. You
talk like footing off is the only way to sail. Just like Doug thinks
his trawler is the only way to sail. Just like Sloco is locked into his
little racing world.

RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

DSK wrote:
Jeff wrote:
.... you want a boat the
gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly handled.

Actually that sounds like it could be fun.


Yeh, I was thinking of all the playing around I did just to show off
in my youth - single handing from the trapeze on a Tempest, for
instance. Or feathering upwind rather than really pushing, because
all I was after was the the big gust to take us downwind. The real
racers probably winced at my antics, but I had fun. My point is,
though, one should understand the difference.


OTOH it's also nice to have a boat that really scoots when well handled,
and lets you know what it likes.

Its funny, most of the time we don't think about it - we just got used
to doing 7-9 knots instead of 5-7, and we don't worry much about
getting in before dark. But every now and then I notice we've been
doing 10+ knots for a while and I remember this is a bit different
from the old Nonsuch.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Each boat is different. In this case, both RB's
and my boat will gain VMG by footing off. However, the optimal point
for the 35s5 is maybe 38 degrees with a VMG of 5.2 (I'm guessing)
while mine is 43 with a VMG of 5.5.


At 38 degrees the 35s5 shows 6.4 knots with a VMG of 5.855. I expect
that Donal's 33.7 points a bit better than my boat and I think you're
underselling the performance of the First Series boats, which is well
regarded.
In addition, if I'm heading home on a port tack, about to come around
an obstacle, I will well apreciate the 35s5's pointing ability and 5.8
knots is just fine. I'm sitting there, holding the big wheel, little
Thomas at my side. I'd like to just hold my course, clear the obstacle
and keep on sailing. You would have me fall off, gather speed, tack,
blah blah. What's the hurry all the time? Just SAIL and use the boat's
pointing potential from time to time.
Boats that can point better are just more fun, or as someone a lot
smarter than me wrote,

"The boat with greater directional control is usually thought to be the
better design."

Suitability is everything...something Jeff doesn't seem to understand.
I've already sailing the 35s5 across a series of days where the PDQ
would have crawled by comparison, though Jeff readily admits he motors
in such conditions.
Here we are again, Jeff. Hope you're happy!


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Jeff wrote:
Yeh, I was thinking of all the playing around I did just to show off in
my youth - single handing from the trapeze on a Tempest, for instance.
Or feathering upwind rather than really pushing, because all I was after
was the the big gust to take us downwind. The real racers probably
winced at my antics, but I had fun. My point is, though, one should
understand the difference.


Yeah sure... and also, it takes some skill to do these kinds
of show-off moves; and by pushing the boat to do unlikely
things you learn more about how boats behave.



OTOH it's also nice to have a boat that really scoots when well
handled, and lets you know what it likes.


Its funny, most of the time we don't think about it - we just got used
to doing 7-9 knots instead of 5-7, and we don't worry much about getting
in before dark. But every now and then I notice we've been doing 10+
knots for a while and I remember this is a bit different from the old
Nonsuch.


One of the things I have not liked about multis is the lack
of feel. Usually the helm is more of a brake and the sails
looks to be oversheeted... then you notice that if you ease,
the boat slows down. It may just be that I have never worked
at developing reflexes appropriate to sailing a multi; but I
also wonder if it's not one of the reason why some sailors
flip big cats... no message getting thru that something bad
is about to happen.

With regard to the issue of VMG, polars are usually drawn up
either from VPPs or from the flattest water testing
available over a long period of time. Boats will go best at
significantly lower angles (ie pointed further away from the
wind) as chop & waves build up.

On glassy flat water, a Lightning can tack thru a smidge
less than 70 degrees while tearing along. It feels almost
like going straight upwind and makes those
off-the-start-line pinching contests really impressive. I'd
like to try it with an Etchells!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.

Ah well, for a moment I was under the impression Jeff was capable of an
actual sailing discussion. Nope. He flipped it into a troll.

No, I'm chastising you for using your ignorance as a platform for
criticizing other boats.

The fun of sailing for you is all about getting somewhere. For us it's
the sailing. That's why we'd never buy a dull Cat like yours.
And I must say your the first "sailor" I ever heard talk about VMG
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.

Then you haven't talked to sailors. Pointing is of interest to round
the buoys racers because of the tactical situations involved. And the
best racers are in one-design, where each boat has the same
theoretical VMG, so making the boat point better than others is of
some value. But, when one talks about open water sailing and upwind
capability, pointing is meaningless and VMG is the measure of upwind
performance.

You choose to
foot off for better speed, while some will hand off speed to pinch. You
talk like footing off is the only way to sail.

Being able to gain VMG while footing off is a blessing only some boats
enjoy. Knowing when to do it is an important skill. Pinching is also
a useful skill but I find rather few situations where its useful.

Just like Doug thinks
his trawler is the only way to sail. Just like Sloco is locked into his
little racing world.


Right. Just like you define upwind performance by how high a boat can
point rather than how well it actually goes upwind.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
Each boat is different. In this case, both RB's
and my boat will gain VMG by footing off. However, the optimal point
for the 35s5 is maybe 38 degrees with a VMG of 5.2 (I'm guessing)
while mine is 43 with a VMG of 5.5.


At 38 degrees the 35s5 shows 6.4 knots with a VMG of 5.855.

No - those numbers don't compute. The 6.4 is reasonable, but that
implies VMG of 5.04. And remember the 40.7 only does 6.8 at 38 degrees.

I expect
that Donal's 33.7 points a bit better than my boat and I think you're
underselling the performance of the First Series boats, which is well
regarded.

I'm not underselling, I'm quoting the polars of the 40.7. I gather
Beneteau is so proud (rightfully so) of them that they're posted next
to the helm on every boat. In light air the 40.7 clearly beats the
PDQ, by as much as 20%, but that evens up at around 10 knots. At 12
knots the cat pulls ahead and at higher winds its faster a almost
every point of sail.

In addition, if I'm heading home on a port tack, about to come around
an obstacle, I will well apreciate the 35s5's pointing ability and 5.8
knots is just fine. I'm sitting there, holding the big wheel, little
Thomas at my side. I'd like to just hold my course, clear the obstacle
and keep on sailing. You would have me fall off, gather speed, tack,
blah blah. What's the hurry all the time? Just SAIL and use the boat's
pointing potential from time to time.

You're really quibbling over a few degrees, and a few tenths of a
knot. A cat will point almost as high as a mono, its just not worth
it because it goes so much faster by footing off. Yes, a mono may
shoot around an obstacle a bit better. I suppose in your mind that's
a good reason to chose a boat.


Boats that can point better are just more fun, or as someone a lot
smarter than me wrote,

Boats that do 12 knots with little effort are fun. You're just
infatuated about pointing because you learned about it this year.



"The boat with greater directional control is usually thought to be the
better design."

??? And this means what, that fin keel boat are bad because they
need help to have any control?


Suitability is everything...something Jeff doesn't seem to understand.
I've already sailing the 35s5 across a series of days where the PDQ
would have crawled by comparison, though Jeff readily admits he motors
in such conditions.

I've said many times that your boat is a reasonable choice for light
air, flat water, day sailing. The rest of us have real boats for the
real world.

Here we are again, Jeff. Hope you're happy!

I'll be happier on Saturday, when we're on our way to the Vineyard.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Yes, a mono may
shoot around an obstacle a bit better. I suppose in your mind that's
a good reason to chose a boat.



That's one reason. Others are she has to please my eye, she must be fun
to sail in most conditions, even in light air, she has to be
comfortable on deck and below...and since we're a few years from having
much more time to sail, she need not cost over 100K.
You'll note that your PDQ fails in every respect and you really don't
find them often on the LIS, which I'm sure you know is a well loved and
famous sailing ground. If I was to be 100% honest, I'd probably have to
admit that the ugly lines of Catamarans are just too much for me to
deal with. I wouldn't marry an ugly woman and I won't sail an ugly
boat. I'm happy for you that you could get past this problem, but for
many people it's a real problem.

Sorry, Jeff. Your boat just doesn't cut it here. Frankly, because she's
a bore to sail in general, she really doesn't cut it for me anywhere.
She ranks right up there with motorsailors and trawlers.
Nothing you can say, no polars or stories of her practicality can ease
the pain that she is on a sailors eyes or the dullness of her flat
helm. Our 35s5 feels like flying...and we love her for it. We don't
want a vessel that takes away the feel of sailing. Maybe we need to
grow up...or maybe we hope we never will!!!!

RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.


Then you haven't talked to sailors.


Read Thom's post, Jeff. He's far older and wiser than you. If there's
any definition of a sailor that remotely holds fast, it's a person who
earns money on the water. I'm one of the few people here doing that.
Folks who race are also sailors. My good friend races J-Boats and also
does Atlantic crossings at least once a year. He's very impressed by
boats that can point racing or not. He's also pretty impressed with the
handling of my 35s5 and even more so with the 36.7 he races on. Like
most serious sailors, he has no interest in Cats. They have no
traditional appeal, no romance and truly little fun factor in most
situations.
Jeff, you were the kid who watched others play and thought they were
"doing it wrong." I know your type quite well. If you were at peace
with your boat, you'd be able to accept how happy with are with her.
But the fact is that my boat upsets you. You KNOW she's fast and fun.
You KNOW we don't need a dinghy for that "sailing feel" that you must
hunt for elsewhere. You KNOW your boat is essentially a very well built
practical cruising platform that is virtually souless.
But it was your choice, Jeff. Just as it was Doug's choice to buy a
powerboat. There's really nothing left for you to be critical of
outside of your own mistakes. If we've made any we're simply having too
much fun to notice.
And I truly hope you actually get some enjoyment out of the PDQ, Jeff,
of some sort or another.

Live with it, Jeff. Move on.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
being the end all element of a boat's pointing ability.


Then you haven't talked to sailors.


Read Thom's post, Jeff. He's far older and wiser than you.

He may be wiser but he's not that much older.

If there's
any definition of a sailor that remotely holds fast, it's a person who
earns money on the water. I'm one of the few people here doing that.

No you don't. I made money on the water, for longer than you've been
sailing. You sell a few tired boats and scrap gear.

Folks who race are also sailors.

I raced for a number of years, even have some silver.

My good friend races J-Boats and also
does Atlantic crossings at least once a year. He's very impressed by
boats that can point racing or not. He's also pretty impressed with the
handling of my 35s5 and even more so with the 36.7 he races on.

What's his name, JaxAshby? You sound like a complete idiot, ranting
that you have a friend that likes your boat. What a Doophus!! So
what's your point, he's a racer who happens to like your club racer.
If you actually raced it, it might have some meaning.

Like
most serious sailors, he has no interest in Cats.

So? I have a friend who has no interest in Beneteaus. He thinks they
really suck. (Really, and he's one of the most respected surveyors on
the East Coast. He calls them "bend-in-twos.")


They have no
traditional appeal, no romance and truly little fun factor in most
situations.

That's why they're the fastest growing segment of the boating industry.


Jeff, you were the kid who watched others play and thought they were
"doing it wrong." I know your type quite well. If you were at peace
with your boat, you'd be able to accept how happy with are with her.
But the fact is that my boat upsets you.

I point out that pinching is not the same as VMG and you claim its all
because of jealously. I never said anything about your boat at all, I
just think its pretty lame to criticize a boat because its a quarter
knot slower when pinched 10 degrees past its optimal VMG. Especially
when its a faster boat even upwind. This seems to have sent you into
a Temper Tantrum. Suzy will have her hands full with two babies going
through the terrible twos at the same time.


You KNOW she's fast and fun.

Yes, I'm sure it is. However, when I want fast and fun I'd rather
take a 470.

You KNOW we don't need a dinghy for that "sailing feel" that you must
hunt for elsewhere.

Must I? You must know I keep a sailing dinghy hanging in davits and a
kayak on the rail. I just like to use them in neat spots like
Penobscot Bay. I can have my cake and eat it too, all you get are
Ding-Dongs.

You KNOW your boat is essentially a very well built
practical cruising platform

that's true. Yup, that what I wanted, the perfect cruising boat. And
that's what we got. You wanted the perfect light air, flat water day
sailor with a 7 foot bunk that you'll take on two overnights a year,
and maybe thats what you got.

that is virtually souless.

I didn't know you were so religious.

But it was your choice, Jeff. Just as it was Doug's choice to buy a
powerboat. There's really nothing left for you to be critical of
outside of your own mistakes. If we've made any we're simply having too
much fun to notice.

Our cat has taken us from the Great Lakes to Maine to the Florida Keys
and back, in comfort and safety. Now we're only doing about 7-8 weeks
a summer on board, but in a few years we'll head out again. You're
right, that doesn't sound like fun.

What's going on here is that you can't stand the fact that someone
else in the group has a bigger, faster, prettier, more comfortable,
and just plain better boat than you. And it actually gets used to go
cruising, something that seems to scare the crap out of of you.
Frankly, I think that Scotty, DSK, and all the others have more fun on
their boats than you can ever understand, and it shows in the raw
jealousy that drips out of everyone of your posts.


And I truly hope you actually get some enjoyment out of the PDQ, Jeff,
of some sort or another.

You can only dream about cruising, everyone else here actually does it.


Live with it, Jeff. Move on.

Yup. In a few days we're moving on about 150 miles to the Vineyard.
Maybe Cuttyhunk. Maybe over to Block or Narragansett. Wherever the
wind takes us.

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

I point out that pinching is not the same as VMG and you claim its
all
because of jealously. I never said anything about your boat at all, I
just think its pretty lame to criticize a boat because its a quarter
knot slower when pinched 10 degrees past its optimal VMG. Especially
when its a faster boat even upwind. This seems to have sent you into
a Temper Tantrum.

Stop it. Your confusing him.