Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
He's not reporting light wind, he's reporting NO wind.

Sort of like the difference between a small weak brain, and
NO brain.

... How successfull
were you
at propelling your Nonesuch in no wind by roll tacking when single
handing?

Jeff wrote:
The techniques I described work best when there's no wind.


Anybody with the slightest amount of skill in this knows
that. Guess where Boobsie and/or Bitty-Bill fall on tha curve?

... After all,
you can go infinitely faster!


Not only that, you can aim the boat in any direction you like.

And I never said I rolled tacked the Nonsuch. But we were able to move
it by jibing vigorously.


You could roll tack it, if you got several people to move
their weight together with enough coordination. It's not
really that difficult, I've roll tacked lots of different
boats from Sunfish up to 40' keel boats. A light narrow boat
like an Olson 30 can be roll-tacked (or rocked) handily.



What is the minimum wind you need to move your PDQ at a reasonalble
speed? Does
roll tacking help?


The PDQ is not a speed demon in light air.

Relatively few catamarans are, but then does anybody expect
BillyJane to know that?



And she doesn't seem to respond well to my roll tacking efforts. I
guess I've lost a few pounds.

That must be it. Plus, you'd spill your drink and that would
never do.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Over 10 knots a PDQ 36 setup
for racing (i.e. not mine) would walk away from from a 35s5, even
upwind.



What do your polars say for 16 knots at 35%, Jeff? Or thereabouts.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

In 16 Knots
At 36 degrees: 5.5 knots, VMG 4.5
optimal at 43 7.6 knots VMG 5.5
between 60 and 135 over 9 knots, max of 10.6

I don't know what the 35s5 polars are, but the hot Farr designed First
40.7 with a PHRF under 60:
At 38 degrees 6.82 knots VMG 5.37
max reaching speed 8.89 but mostly under 8
http://www.ciaracing.com/ben40.7_additional_polars.htm

So the 40.7 can outpoint the PDQ by 5 degrees, but the VMG is a bit
less. And reaching would be a horizon job. And to do this, I only
have to carry 60% of the sail area. And I don't spill my drink.

Of course, I don't think I want to get in a tacking duel. And these
polars were for the outboard version, not the diesel. But before I
loaded my boat for cruising (hard dink, kayak, machine shop, etc.) I
would see a sustained 11 knots reaching in 20, whereas the predicted
is 12. The highest sustained I've seen in 13.5, but in recent years
its only been over 10 knots a few times.

So what do the 35s5 polars say?


Capt. Rob wrote:
Over 10 knots a PDQ 36 setup
for racing (i.e. not mine) would walk away from from a 35s5, even
upwind.
6


What do your polars say for 16 knots at 35%, Jeff? Or thereabouts.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

In 16 Knots
At 36 degrees: 5.5 knots, VMG 4.5
optimal at 43 7.6 knots VMG 5.5
between 60 and 135 over 9 knots, max of 10.6



In 16 knots at 35% the 35s5 polars claim 6.3 knots, but with VMG of
just 4.897 knots, only slightly faster than your cat upwind and drinks
WILL fly! Optimum run is 7.6 knots, but as you know the 35s5 easily
tops this, though never with the ease of your cat.
The 35s5 polar chart show VMG of over 4 knots to something close to 30%
and I have not been able to sail that high with my sails. More like 40%
most of the time.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Why are you so obsessed with the pointing angle when by footing off
you go so much faster? With the exception of race tacticians, no one
wants to point higher than than the optimum tacking angle. You can
keep pinching and doing 4 knots good upwind, I'll foot off to around
50 degrees and get upwind 20% faster. Even at 60 degrees true my vmg
is up at 4.65 with actual boatspeed of over 9 knots! So you can sheet
in tight and pinch up, I'll ease off and fly away, and stil beat you
upwind!




Capt. Rob wrote:
In 16 Knots
At 36 degrees: 5.5 knots, VMG 4.5
optimal at 43 7.6 knots VMG 5.5
between 60 and 135 over 9 knots, max of 10.6



In 16 knots at 35% the 35s5 polars claim 6.3 knots, but with VMG of
just 4.897 knots, only slightly faster than your cat upwind and drinks
WILL fly! Optimum run is 7.6 knots, but as you know the 35s5 easily
tops this, though never with the ease of your cat.
The 35s5 polar chart show VMG of over 4 knots to something close to 30%
and I have not been able to sail that high with my sails. More like 40%
most of the time.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Why are you so obsessed with the pointing angle when by footing off
you go so much faster?


I'm not obsessed with it, but I enjoy seeing how close to the wind I
can get a boat to make effective VMG. Jeff, even after 12 years of
owning boats I'm still amazed at what they can do and never take it for
granted.
When we're out sailing and really playing with the boat, that means
generally trying all points of sail rather than trying to get to a
destination...it's not always about highest VMG. We're mostly out there
to play and relax.


RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:

Why are you so obsessed with the pointing angle when by footing off
you go so much faster?


I'm not obsessed with it, but I enjoy seeing how close to the wind I
can get a boat to make effective VMG.

No, you've mentioned dozens of time that various boats point well or
don't point well, while you almost never mention VMG. I always
thought you were just making the newbie mistake of saying "points
well" when you really mean "doesn't go upwind well" but it seems you
don't really appreciate the difference.

Jeff, even after 12 years of
owning boats I'm still amazed at what they can do and never take it for
granted.

Sounds like you haven't really learned much. You should try racing.

When we're out sailing and really playing with the boat, that means
generally trying all points of sail rather than trying to get to a
destination...it's not always about highest VMG. We're mostly out there
to play and relax.

Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.




RB
35s5
NY

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Jeff wrote:
.... you want a boat the
gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly handled.

Actually that sounds like it could be fun.

OTOH it's also nice to have a boat that really scoots when
well handled, and lets you know what it likes.

DSK

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

--
"Swab Rob" wrote
Jeff, even after 12 years of
owning boats I'm still amazed at what they can do but
never
figured out HOW to do it.


--
RB.''One who never gets out of the Sound cannot, with any
degree of
credibility, comment on the courage of fellow sailors''

Sail Report-35s5 meets it's match!
 

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 16:09:10 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Capt. Rob wrote:
Why are you so obsessed with the pointing angle when by footing off
you go so much faster?


I'm not obsessed with it, but I enjoy seeing how close to the wind I
can get a boat to make effective VMG.
No, you've mentioned dozens of time that various boats point well or
don't point well, while you almost never mention VMG. I always
thought you were just making the newbie mistake of saying "points
well" when you really mean "doesn't go upwind well" but it seems you
don't really appreciate the difference.

Jeff, even after 12 years of
owning boats I'm still amazed at what they can do and never take it for
granted.
Sounds like you haven't really learned much. You should try racing.

When we're out sailing and really playing with the boat, that means
generally trying all points of sail rather than trying to get to a
destination...it's not always about highest VMG. We're mostly out there
to play and relax.
Right. It's now clear that whenever you talk about beating boats
you're really just out-pointing them while in fact going slower
upwind. It seems you don't want a boat that performs well, you want a
boat the gives the illusion of performing well while being poorly
handled. I guess that suits your style.



Jeff,

Is it at all possible that a boat that can point higher can also gain more VMG
by footing off LESS than a boat that doesn't point as high? All other things
being equal, that would allow them to go just as fast without covering as much
ground.

Yes its possible. Each boat is different. In this case, both RB's
and my boat will gain VMG by footing off. However, the optimal point
for the 35s5 is maybe 38 degrees with a VMG of 5.2 (I'm guessing)
while mine is 43 with a VMG of 5.5. I can foot off another 8 degrees
and accelerate better in puffs and still go upwind faster.


BTW, my sailboat is a lot faster than Bobsprits. I'm sure of it!

No doubt, but it can't point as well.


CWM