"katy" wrote in message
...
Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , katy
wrote:


Maxprop wrote:

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are
of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said
the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22.
One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco
Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are
riding high.

Max


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that
this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team
dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and indicated that that
was the future of office furniture and that tghey should eatablish a
competitive line. But the PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be
lowering our standards. Problem was, though, that unless they bought
used, the average small business owner, which is still the heart of
America but is fading fast, could not afford Steelcase furniture. The
average doctor could not decorate his waiting room with Steelcase
designs. So they ignored the American public, holding out for governemnt
contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold
herself out by not having the foresight to change with the changing
world.


Bingo. We've been running this argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is
satisfactory.

It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one. PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....

Junk? Is that why Kia and Hyundai offer 100K mile/10year warranties, and
the US cars give you 3?

Max

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , katy
wrote:

Peter Wiley wrote:

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one.

PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....

Give me a Subaru, Toyota, Mitsubishi etc. Korean cars here seem to be
pretty reliable and have long warranties. After that, you've said it
all.

My daughter and son-in-law bought a Ford Explorer about 8 years back. The
engine, which they properly and carefully maintained via company maintenance
schedules, gave up after 60K miles--failed main bearings. Ford offered to
pay less than $1000 toward the purchase of a new engine. The kids scrapped
the vehicle. Ford now tops their "never again" list.

My second last Toyota pickup had in excess of 200K miles when I received $2K
for it in trade on a new one. The engine ran perfectly, the compression was
high on three cylinders and acceptable on one, and it burned less than a
quart of oil every 5K miles.

Max

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 05:37:57 GMT, "Maxprop" wrote:


"Mys Terry" wrote in message
. ..
On 27 Feb 2006 19:31:02 -0600, Dave wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:59:32 GMT, Mys Terry
said:

I live in Connecticut. There are many small working farms in my area
even
though
I am also within a roughly 30 minute drive of several pretty large
cities. This
is not Wyoming, it's crowded, incredibly expensive, Connecticut. My
back
yard
neighbor is a working horse farm. Just today I heard from someone who
is
STARTING a new small farm within a couple of miles of my house.

Hey, I keep my boat there, and we had a house in SE CT for about 15
years.
I
certainly love the Chester and Hamburg fairs, and used to also love the
Madison Sat. night auctions. But much though I regret it, I think my
statement is nevertheless accurate.

Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than people in Vermont.

Not since the late 60s, actually.

http://www.outdoorjapan.com/features...grounds-1.html

Look under "Dairy Farming."

Max


Yes, I ALWAYS use a japanese travel article to verify the census figures
for
Vermont. They are usually written by one person, and that insures that
everything they spout is factual.

I'd trust them any day over you, Billy. It's bad enough you pass on bogus
info, but info not valid for over 40 years???

Hell, my grandparents, now dead for over twenty years, told me that Vt. had
fewer cows than people long before they passed on.

Max

"Scotty" wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:44:36 GMT, Mys Terry

said:

Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than
people in Vermont.

I suspect it won't be long before they're outnumbered by
former New Yorkers.

Yeah, most of them lawyers...there goes the neighborhood.

Some are guys like Ben and Jerry, who claim to make ice cream in VT, but
really churn the stuff out by the boatload right in good ol' NY.

Max

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.

There is a lot of rhetoric here now about "overvalued" real estate. The
term is perhaps a misnomer, but it refers to what property will be worth
when the market cools and the prices readjust. This happens in places like
San Francisco, Miami, and Chicago from time to time. My brother's home in
SF, which he purchased in '74 for $58K, appreciated to over $400K, and then
readjusted in a slump to around $275K back in the 90s. Now it is over $850K
and still rising, but he strongly expects a readjustment somewhere down the
road. So the market gurus speak over "overvaluation." Ultimately, however,
the trend is always up over the long haul. That's why interest-only loans
are dispensed like candy in such areas these days.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
...

Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
om...


In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:



"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
news:270220062239050541%peter_d_wiley@hotmail .com...




So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.


They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size
upgrade.

27 feet to 30 ft and 4 inches is a substantial size difference? And both
the previous boats were very old...the upkeep on them was horrendous and
the 27 had an atomic 4 that was going to need to be replaced...Neither had
any great value and the 22' sailed for crap (shoal draft)...we upgraded to
a boat with diesel and a wheel (27 was a tiller boat and Mr Sails has had
rotator cuff surgery...)


Sorry. I was just being kind.


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that
this was going to happen.


American manufacturing only? Doesn't American labor play a role in this?


When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team dragged in a desk made by HON
to a presentation and indicated that that was the future of office
furniture and that tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the
PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem
was, though, that unless they bought used, the average small business
owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could not
afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not decorate his
waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored the American public,
holding out for governemnt contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all
over. America has sold herself out by not having the foresight to change
with the changing world.


America can compete nicely with just about anyone, but some changes are
necessary. To compete with one's competitors, one must at the very least
emulate them. Better yet one should create a cost advantage for the same
quality, or create a quality advantage for the same cost. The US is capable
of doing either, or both. But labor is going to have to recognize some
major realignment, along with top-heavy industry. The $30 per hour jobs are
vanishing faster than spotted owls, and until organized labor acknowledges
that low-paying jobs are better than NO jobs, the situation will exacerbate.
And CEOs and other top-level execs are going to have to face the fact that
multi-million dollar annual salaries and golden parachutes aren't compatible
with the world economic markets of the day.

My take? Neither side will give an inch before the whole thing collapses
into a ruined American economy. I hope to be sailing somewhere in the
Caribbean with my money in offshore banks by then.

Max


Yep, Unions helped build manufacturing in the US and now they're
tearing it apart....

Maxprop wrote:
"katy" wrote in message
...

Peter Wiley wrote:

In article , katy
wrote:



Maxprop wrote:


Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are
of foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said
the trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22.
One only has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco
Bay to see this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the departing vessels have empty containers and are
riding high.

Max


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact that
this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase, his team
dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and indicated that that
was the future of office furniture and that tghey should eatablish a
competitive line. But the PTB's said "absolutely not". We would be
lowering our standards. Problem was, though, that unless they bought
used, the average small business owner, which is still the heart of
America but is fading fast, could not afford Steelcase furniture. The
average doctor could not decorate his waiting room with Steelcase
designs. So they ignored the American public, holding out for governemnt
contracts. And then 9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold
herself out by not having the foresight to change with the changing
world.


Bingo. We've been running this argument over on rec.crafts.metalworking
for years now. There are basically no US manufacturers of small
precision tools like lathes, mills etc left. South Bend didn't update
its lathe design in 50 years and that wasn't because it was perfect.

I have a mix of US and British machinery and I like it. But it's all
old. When I go to buy a new lathe or milling machine for my people at
work, I buy one made in Taiwan or China. They aren't as elegant or as
well finished, but they cut metal just fine and the accuracy is
satisfactory.

It didn't have to be that way, but it is.

Ditto for vehicles. Almost nobody in Australia would buy an imported US
made vehicle in preference to a Japanese or even Korean made one. PDW

We had a KIA and our son drives KIA's...junk cars....give me a GM
anyday...or even a Ford....


Junk? Is that why Kia and Hyundai offer 100K mile/10year warranties, and
the US cars give you 3?

Max


Wait until you go to use the warranty...it's very exclusive..

wrote
.... When your farm is making less and less profit and some
developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it
and to hell with the farm.

Yep. Why wouldn't they?


....The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are
leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to
support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not
have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but
many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought
the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing
is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the
realtoes....

I think some of them are going to be pretty hard hit too. It
might take a while for the effect to 'trickle down' (or is
it up?) but rest assured that they'll suffer too.

John Cairns wrote:
Katy, with the exception of waterfront property, there is
probably no real
estate in the state of Michigan that's significantly
overvalued. Even the
waterfront property, probably. Agreed, the real estate
market in Michigan is
fairly poor, but there's the economy again.

Well, if what Katysails says about the economy is true, then
there will be nothing to support high real estate prices.
People have to be able to earn enough money to afford their
mortgage, or they 1- sell for whatever they can get or 2-
just walk away (default). If enough of this happens, then
banks start to feel the squeeze.

..... Now soCal and soFla are another
story entirely. I've read recently that some areas may be
overvalued by as
much as 40%.

Optimist.

It all depends on a few highly subjective factors. What if
everybody who is planning to sell their house in South
Florida (or Michigan) decides to just wait a few weeks? What
if everybody who was thinking of buying decides they want to
go ahead? It's the supply/demand thing.

Now reverse the situation, with speculators. When lots of
people are trying to sell, some of whom are in a hurry, the
market can go into free fall. Prices literally hit the bottom.

And yes, it can happen here. Do I think it will? No, because
the worst-case scenario is rarely what occurs.


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
No such thing as overvalued or undervalued in a free market, except in
someone's perceptions. It's worth what you can sell it for, when you
want to or have to sell it. Period.


Yep again.
But in this case there are some strong influencing factors.
Once a local housing market starts to drop, then banks
become ticklish about putting up big mortgages in that
market. If there are any speculators (and the entry of
speculators into *any* market is a bad sign) they all want
to sell in a hurry while they can still get their money out.
This puts downward pressure on a market that may be
otherwise normal & healthy... it will recover but will take
time.

And as John Maynard Keynes once remarked, "In the long run,
everything comes out fine, except that we'll all be dead by
then."

Maxprop wrote:
There is a lot of rhetoric here now about "overvalued" real estate. The
term is perhaps a misnomer, but it refers to what property will be worth
when the market cools and the prices readjust. This happens in places like
San Francisco, Miami, and Chicago from time to time.

Clue: it happens *everywhere* from time to time. Supply and
demand are in a constant state of seeking equilibrium.

... My brother's home in
SF, which he purchased in '74 for $58K, appreciated to over $400K, and then
readjusted in a slump to around $275K back in the 90s. Now it is over $850K
and still rising, but he strongly expects a readjustment somewhere down the
road. So the market gurus speak over "overvaluation."

And people who have strong reasons to sell their homes
during these periods of "correction" get hammered.

It's not a crash if it only happens to the other guy, right?

... Ultimately, however,
the trend is always up over the long haul.

Uh-huh.

Did the Tooth Fairy tell you so?

Did it ever occur to you that prices seek a level relative
to inflation? Did it ever occur to you that some goods &
services experience a permanent decline in demand?

If you think that long term trends are *always* up,
immutably & indubitably, then I have a great investment for
you in Acme Buggy Whip Co stock.

... That's why interest-only loans
are dispensed like candy in such areas these days.


Great idea: literally gambling with your home. Poker is for
wimps!

Gee this thread has come a long way. Started out at the
ports & worked it's way inland, I guess.

DSK

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 08:43:16 -0500, DSK wrote:

wrote
.... When your farm is making less and less profit and some
developer comes along and offers you a bushel of money for it, you take it
and to hell with the farm.

Yep. Why wouldn't they?


....The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are
leaving the state in droves because of the job market not being able to
support the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not
have to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but
many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who bought
the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The whole thing
is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the devlopers and the
realtoes....



Happened to me in Oklahoma when crude and NG prices tanked in the mid
eighties. I was fortunate to more or less break even selling my house
that I had bought brand new and lived in for eight years. Many of my
friends, neighbors and people I had worked with were carrying money to
the closings to get out from under.

My Mother in law has waterfront in Florida. Value has doubled each of
the last two years. And it is real because the house is not for sale
but she has people knocking on the door making offers. It is not a
good thing unless you are flipping real estate. If you just want to
live there eventually the taxes and insurance will drive you out. I
feel sorry for people who retired on a fixed income and their dream
was to live near the water in Florida. Even though Florida limits
the amount of tax increase per year for a homstead, I expect it will
eventually drive them out.

Frank

"katy" wrote in message
...

Yep, Unions helped build manufacturing in the US and now they're tearing
it apart....

But not all by themselves--not by any means. They're getting plenty of help
from greedy execs and our government, too.

Max