Hello All:

I am told there are two sides to every story. My story started
September 6, 2005 when I placed a special order for two 7x15 ss ports
from NFM. What made them so special? I asked for the 10 mm glass.
Little did I know that NFM had never installed 10 mm glass in a 7x15
port. Five months later my ports are now in my living room. And what a
story.

I received my ports for the first time on January 17, 2006. I did have
the option to express mail the ports from China at an additional $600.
I declined and took the cheaper two month shipping option which
eventually turned into five months. When I opened the box and looked at
my gleaming beauties I noticed two problems.

First the port gasket sealed a consistent 3/8" around the main frame
except in the corners where the gaskets deformed making the tight 90
degree turn in the corner. This created only a hairline contact seal. I
did as NFM recommended and tightened all the dogs and two adjusting
bolts. Still had hairline contact between the gasket and mainframe
seat. Why? The gasket is deformed and does not match the gasket seat.

My second problem was the holes on the main frame where the machine
screws pass through to thread into the trim ring were off center. I
could not bolt the trim ring to the main frame because 4 of the 8
machine screws would not pass through the off center holes.

I took pictures and returned to NFM. Carli of NFM looked at the ports
and poured water in the closed ports as a hydro-test. She says the
ports are in perfect order because they did not let standing water leak
over night. The ports were returned to me and I got them on February 6,
2006 exactly five months since my order. I inspected my ports. They
still have the same two problems. This is a classic he said she
said...............but it gets better!

Below is part of an email I sent to NFM a few days ago:

"Dear Carli:
....would you please forward this message to the owner of NFM. I believe
I may have met him in 1980 when I was in PT. I also want to give the
owner an opportunity to respond to my concern before I document this
five month experience on several Internet discussion boards. I will
start with
rec.boats.cruising
rec.boats.building
and a new one called BadBoatBiz

Of course there are several owner groups that accept posts also. I will
be pleased to forward any post I make to NFM if you care to respond to
any. Actually it may make for an interesting dialogue. At this point my
recommendation in less than 10 words is:
friendly staff..... abysmal workmanship.............and a product best
left sitting at the boat show. Do not waste five months and $600 for
these two mediocre ports...."




The above is only part of the original message. I omitted parts of the
original message because it describes the two problems my ports have in
greater detail. What follows is the response I got from NFM today:

From: "New Found Metals"
To: "'Chris'"
Subject: 10mm 7x15 Stainless Ports
"Dear Chris,
We have examined the portlights, specifically the areas that concerned
you: gasket seal and bolt line-up. Neither area proved to be
defective, contrary to your statements. What you have are heavy duty,
sealing, ocean ready port windows.
Both the gasket on the ports and the additional gasket you requested
will form a tight seal and function properly.
We have offered you solutions which have included refunding you for the
portlights (contrary to our no return policy on special orders). You
chose to take the ports back with additional gasket materials.

We do not appreciate the threatening language of your emails. We will
not tolerate slanderous publications and, if necessary, will pursue
legal action if slander is found.

Regards,
Carli
New Found Metals, Inc."



Alright everyone........................... what do you think? What
should I do? Did I use "...threatening language..." in my email?

Chris
AKA Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello All:

I am told there are two sides to every story. My story started
September 6, 2005 when I placed a special order for two 7x15 ss ports
from NFM. What made them so special? I asked for the 10 mm glass.
Little did I know that NFM had never installed 10 mm glass in a 7x15
port. Five months later my ports are now in my living room. And what a
story.

I received my ports for the first time on January 17, 2006. I did have
the option to express mail the ports from China at an additional $600.
I declined and took the cheaper two month shipping option which
eventually turned into five months. When I opened the box and looked at
my gleaming beauties I noticed two problems.

First the port gasket sealed a consistent 3/8" around the main frame
except in the corners where the gaskets deformed making the tight 90
degree turn in the corner. This created only a hairline contact seal. I
did as NFM recommended and tightened all the dogs and two adjusting
bolts. Still had hairline contact between the gasket and mainframe
seat. Why? The gasket is deformed and does not match the gasket seat.

My second problem was the holes on the main frame where the machine
screws pass through to thread into the trim ring were off center. I
could not bolt the trim ring to the main frame because 4 of the 8
machine screws would not pass through the off center holes.

I took pictures and returned to NFM. Carli of NFM looked at the ports
and poured water in the closed ports as a hydro-test. She says the
ports are in perfect order because they did not let standing water leak
over night. The ports were returned to me and I got them on February 6,
2006 exactly five months since my order. I inspected my ports. They
still have the same two problems. This is a classic he said she
said...............but it gets better!

Below is part of an email I sent to NFM a few days ago:

"Dear Carli:
...would you please forward this message to the owner of NFM. I believe
I may have met him in 1980 when I was in PT. I also want to give the
owner an opportunity to respond to my concern before I document this
five month experience on several Internet discussion boards. I will
start with
rec.boats.cruising
rec.boats.building
and a new one called BadBoatBiz

Of course there are several owner groups that accept posts also. I will
be pleased to forward any post I make to NFM if you care to respond to
any. Actually it may make for an interesting dialogue. At this point my
recommendation in less than 10 words is:
friendly staff..... abysmal workmanship.............and a product best
left sitting at the boat show. Do not waste five months and $600 for
these two mediocre ports...."




The above is only part of the original message. I omitted parts of the
original message because it describes the two problems my ports have in
greater detail. What follows is the response I got from NFM today:

From: "New Found Metals"
To: "'Chris'"
Subject: 10mm 7x15 Stainless Ports
"Dear Chris,
We have examined the portlights, specifically the areas that concerned
you: gasket seal and bolt line-up. Neither area proved to be
defective, contrary to your statements. What you have are heavy duty,
sealing, ocean ready port windows.
Both the gasket on the ports and the additional gasket you requested
will form a tight seal and function properly.
We have offered you solutions which have included refunding you for the
portlights (contrary to our no return policy on special orders). You
chose to take the ports back with additional gasket materials.

We do not appreciate the threatening language of your emails. We will
not tolerate slanderous publications and, if necessary, will pursue
legal action if slander is found.

Regards,
Carli
New Found Metals, Inc."



Alright everyone........................... what do you think? What
should I do? Did I use "...threatening language..." in my email?

Chris
AKA Bob

What's wrong with a refund?

Hi T-Shoes:

This is an email Carli of NFM sent regarding their refund policy.

"Dear Chris,
We do not accept returns on special orders, but for you we are making
an exception. Even though we are making an exception on the no return
policy we are charging a restocking fee the total credit you will
receive is $463.92. The ports seal and function properly. "

After read the aboe email from NFM I looked at the numbers.

Total cost of 2 ports $602.65
Refund from NFM $463.92
Total out of pocket for me to get a refund $138.73 or 23% of purchase
to restock.
I am out $138.73 and still need ports.
Chris

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi T-Shoes:

This is an email Carli of NFM sent regarding their refund policy.

"Dear Chris,
We do not accept returns on special orders, but for you we are making
an exception. Even though we are making an exception on the no return
policy we are charging a restocking fee the total credit you will
receive is $463.92. The ports seal and function properly. "

After read the aboe email from NFM I looked at the numbers.

Total cost of 2 ports $602.65
Refund from NFM $463.92
Total out of pocket for me to get a refund $138.73 or 23% of purchase
to restock.
I am out $138.73 and still need ports.
Chris

WOW. What a rip!

I'm questioning the 'static water test'. Take a heavy swell up side the hull
(against that portlight) and that is certainly way more than 'static
pressure'.

You didn't by chance pay with a credit card? If yes, document the defect,
ship them back (online delivery confirmation) and tell your credit card to
do a chargeback for defective items.

Hey........ I forgot about that idea. Yes I did pay by credit card.
Yes, the "leave the water in over night" test did not seem a very
accurate predictor if the ports would keep a full swell hitout of my
boat or for that matter sitting at thedock on a windy rainy day. But I
am not the expert.

Thank you ! !

Chris

THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances.

If it's true, it can't be slander. Apparently Carli doesn't know what
slander is. If sharing information about a product that is inferior or
harmful was illegal, we'd all get sued for trying to keep our kids from
smoking or buying Korean cars.

MMC

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello All:

I am told there are two sides to every story. My story started
September 6, 2005 when I placed a special order for two 7x15 ss ports
from NFM. What made them so special? I asked for the 10 mm glass.
Little did I know that NFM had never installed 10 mm glass in a 7x15
port. Five months later my ports are now in my living room. And what a
story.

I received my ports for the first time on January 17, 2006. I did have
the option to express mail the ports from China at an additional $600.
I declined and took the cheaper two month shipping option which
eventually turned into five months. When I opened the box and looked at
my gleaming beauties I noticed two problems.

First the port gasket sealed a consistent 3/8" around the main frame
except in the corners where the gaskets deformed making the tight 90
degree turn in the corner. This created only a hairline contact seal. I
did as NFM recommended and tightened all the dogs and two adjusting
bolts. Still had hairline contact between the gasket and mainframe
seat. Why? The gasket is deformed and does not match the gasket seat.

My second problem was the holes on the main frame where the machine
screws pass through to thread into the trim ring were off center. I
could not bolt the trim ring to the main frame because 4 of the 8
machine screws would not pass through the off center holes.

I took pictures and returned to NFM. Carli of NFM looked at the ports
and poured water in the closed ports as a hydro-test. She says the
ports are in perfect order because they did not let standing water leak
over night. The ports were returned to me and I got them on February 6,
2006 exactly five months since my order. I inspected my ports. They
still have the same two problems. This is a classic he said she
said...............but it gets better!

Below is part of an email I sent to NFM a few days ago:

"Dear Carli:
...would you please forward this message to the owner of NFM. I believe
I may have met him in 1980 when I was in PT. I also want to give the
owner an opportunity to respond to my concern before I document this
five month experience on several Internet discussion boards. I will
start with
rec.boats.cruising
rec.boats.building
and a new one called BadBoatBiz

Of course there are several owner groups that accept posts also. I will
be pleased to forward any post I make to NFM if you care to respond to
any. Actually it may make for an interesting dialogue. At this point my
recommendation in less than 10 words is:
friendly staff..... abysmal workmanship.............and a product best
left sitting at the boat show. Do not waste five months and $600 for
these two mediocre ports...."




The above is only part of the original message. I omitted parts of the
original message because it describes the two problems my ports have in
greater detail. What follows is the response I got from NFM today:

From: "New Found Metals"
To: "'Chris'"
Subject: 10mm 7x15 Stainless Ports
"Dear Chris,
We have examined the portlights, specifically the areas that concerned
you: gasket seal and bolt line-up. Neither area proved to be
defective, contrary to your statements. What you have are heavy duty,
sealing, ocean ready port windows.
Both the gasket on the ports and the additional gasket you requested
will form a tight seal and function properly.
We have offered you solutions which have included refunding you for the
portlights (contrary to our no return policy on special orders). You
chose to take the ports back with additional gasket materials.

We do not appreciate the threatening language of your emails. We will
not tolerate slanderous publications and, if necessary, will pursue
legal action if slander is found.

Regards,
Carli
New Found Metals, Inc."



Alright everyone........................... what do you think? What
should I do? Did I use "...threatening language..." in my email?

Chris
AKA Bob

About credit card companies:

I had a similar experience with an electronics supplier. No amount (months,
literally, including multiple hours-long phone calls doing exactly as the
owner dictated, real-time) of following instructions would make the gear
work as ordered.

Discover happily "temporarily" refunded my price, but the shipper asserted
that they worked properly, and they were custom, so no return.

Joint phone call consultation with Discover produced a demand by the seller
that I engage a Microsoft Certified Network Analyst to determine the problem
in my computer (despite their not working on several machines, failing in
the same fashion[s]).

Without that expense, Discover won't back me up.

Playing the credit card card isn't likely to win anything...

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain
"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey........ I forgot about that idea. Yes I did pay by credit card.
Yes, the "leave the water in over night" test did not seem a very
accurate predictor if the ports would keep a full swell hitout of my
boat or for that matter sitting at thedock on a windy rainy day. But I
am not the expert.

Thank you ! !

Chris

MMC wrote:
THE BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the government for a redress of grievances.

If it's true, it can't be slander. Apparently Carli doesn't know what
slander is. If sharing information about a product that is inferior or
harmful was illegal, we'd all get sued for trying to keep our kids from
smoking or buying Korean cars.


Normally I'd agree. But times have changed, and we U.S.
citizens don't have the rights we used to have.

The current administration believes that the 14th amendment
gives businesses the right to lie in advertising, and also
gives them the right to offer false statements in contracts.
I'd be willing to bet that their view of negative public
statements about a companies products, no matter the truth,
would be that it is slander.

It will be interesting to see how much of these beliefs the
Supreme Court will formally codify.

DSK

Normally I'd agree. But times have changed, and we U.S.
citizens don't have the rights we used to have.

The current administration believes that the 14th amendment
gives businesses the right to lie in advertising, and also
gives them the right to offer false statements in contracts.
I'd be willing to bet that their view of negative public
statements about a companies products, no matter the truth,
would be that it is slander.

It will be interesting to see how much of these beliefs the
Supreme Court will formally codify.

DSK


Hi DSK
This is a bit off my original concern and problem with NFM but
certainly you have brought up an important topic. I was shocked when I
found out a few years ago that police officers can lie to people during
interviews and interrogations in order to gain information. I was
talking to my son-in-law who is a police officer. I said no way. Then
he brought out is state academy training manual, pointed to the page,
and cited a US Supreme Court case that allows officers to lie in order
to gain information. Sort of gets a guy thinking. How do you know when
a police officer is lying or telling the truth?

But back to NFM problem. They are okay ports if I rebuild them myself.
But if your paying $600 bucks for two ports I think they should arrive
ready to install........or be fixed. The problem is that NFM simply
says, There is nothing wrong with the ports. The really interesting
part to my experience is the most THRETINING thing I said was that I
would post my comments here. That certainly struck a sore spot with
NFM.
Bob

I think you should still try to get a refund via your credit card. I'm
quite certain, living in Denmark, that it would be possible to do here.
No matter if you succeed or not, getting that refund, you should make a
website to get the word out. It cannot be slander when you tell your
story. You have their emails to back it up. The truth cannot be
slander.



Bob wrote:
Normally I'd agree. But times have changed, and we U.S.
citizens don't have the rights we used to have.

The current administration believes that the 14th amendment
gives businesses the right to lie in advertising, and also
gives them the right to offer false statements in contracts.
I'd be willing to bet that their view of negative public
statements about a companies products, no matter the truth,
would be that it is slander.

It will be interesting to see how much of these beliefs the
Supreme Court will formally codify.

DSK


Hi DSK
This is a bit off my original concern and problem with NFM but
certainly you have brought up an important topic. I was shocked when I
found out a few years ago that police officers can lie to people during
interviews and interrogations in order to gain information. I was
talking to my son-in-law who is a police officer. I said no way. Then
he brought out is state academy training manual, pointed to the page,
and cited a US Supreme Court case that allows officers to lie in order
to gain information. Sort of gets a guy thinking. How do you know when
a police officer is lying or telling the truth?

But back to NFM problem. They are okay ports if I rebuild them myself.
But if your paying $600 bucks for two ports I think they should arrive
ready to install........or be fixed. The problem is that NFM simply
says, There is nothing wrong with the ports. The really interesting
part to my experience is the most THRETINING thing I said was that I
would post my comments here. That certainly struck a sore spot with
NFM.
Bob