"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

Max

"Mys Terry" wrote in message
...
On 27 Feb 2006 19:31:02 -0600, Dave wrote:

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:59:32 GMT, Mys Terry
said:

I live in Connecticut. There are many small working farms in my area even
though
I am also within a roughly 30 minute drive of several pretty large
cities. This
is not Wyoming, it's crowded, incredibly expensive, Connecticut. My back
yard
neighbor is a working horse farm. Just today I heard from someone who is
STARTING a new small farm within a couple of miles of my house.

Hey, I keep my boat there, and we had a house in SE CT for about 15 years.
I
certainly love the Chester and Hamburg fairs, and used to also love the
Madison Sat. night auctions. But much though I regret it, I think my
statement is nevertheless accurate.

Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than people in Vermont.

Not since the late 60s, actually.

http://www.outdoorjapan.com/features...grounds-1.html

Look under "Dairy Farming."

Max

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:44:36 GMT, Mys Terry
said:

Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than people in Vermont.

I suspect it won't be long before they're outnumbered by former New
Yorkers.

You mean there are still some native Vermonters in Vermont???

Max

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..


So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade.

Perfectly rational decision - as far as 'rational' can be used WRT
boats anyway. Buy the best you can for the dollars you have available.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

That's unsustainable in the longer term too, I think. We run trade
deficits with the USA. At the moment the Chinese demand for raw
materials is helping our economy along, haven't checked but I'd bet
we're running a fat surplus and our exports to China are in USD. You're
a nett importer of goods. I can't see how you can keep running a
country where your chief export seems to be US dollar debt.

PDW

"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:44:36 GMT, Mys Terry

said:

Last time I checked, there were STILL more cows than
people in Vermont.

I suspect it won't be long before they're outnumbered by
former New Yorkers.

Yeah, most of them lawyers...there goes the neighborhood.

SV

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in
the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I
discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures
I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like
78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San
Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their
waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding
high.

Actually, we're shipping a lot of 'stuff' to China. A lot of
machinery, that will be copied and then produced in China
for 1/4 the price.

Scotty

Dave wrote:
On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:29:41 -0500, katy
said:


Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states...


Perhaps. But according to a 1991 study at the University of Michigan the
number of family farms declined from 77,946 in 1969 to 51,172 by 1991. I
doubt that the trend has reversed itself in the last 15 years.

No, it hasn't...and for a very good reason. Developers have
exploited good farm land, forcing townships to raise the value of
raw land to a point where the tac structure alone became a burden to
farmers, driving them off the land. When your farm is making less
and less profit and some developer comes along and offers you a
bushel of money for it, you take it and to hell with the farm, even
though you ahve no idea what else you'll do for a living. Problem
is, now that all taht good farmland has been turned into residential
and commercial development, real estate is now devaluing rapidly.
The economy in MI is at an alltime low and people are leaving the
state in droves because of the job market not being able to support
the population. We are in a fortunate position where we do not have
to make a low sale on our house just to get out from under it, but
many in the state will be taking big losses, especially those who
bought the over-inflated pricey real estate in the first place. The
whole thing is a sad situation...onl;y people who benefit are the
devlopers and the realtoes....

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
m...



So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her price
range at the time.


Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.

So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.

PDW

No, we couldn't and wouldn't have bought a new boat for any reason
at all. Buying a new boat is stupid....the bugs haven't been worked
out of it, it's under-equipped, and usually has the factory
installed acoutrements, generally of a poorer quality than those
installed at a later date by the owner when he wants to upgrade.
Also, once it leaves the factory and is dumped in the slip, the
value drops dramatically. The other point is that Kirie
manufactured Elite's in the US...ours was a prototype from France,
but the company did invest here and employed American citizens. An
investment in this country is necessary for trade relations to be on
par.

Peter Wiley wrote:
In article , katy
wrote:


Dave wrote:

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:32:57 -0500, katy
said:



a lifestyle that is part of
our history


The notion has a certain romantic appeal, but the lifestyle passed 30 or 40
years ago. The family farm is today a creature of Madison Avenue used almost
entirely in defense of large agribusinesses.

Michigan is still small farm based...as are several other states...


Lessee......

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/michigan/

Population - 9,938,444 (as of 2000) [Michigan is the eighth most
populous state in the USA, after California, New York, Texas, Florida,
Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio]
Major Industries - car manufacturing, farming (corn, soybeans, wheat),
timber, fishing

Somehow, Katy, I don't think that anyone can really claim that Michigan
is small farm based. Even the farming listed - corn, soybeans & wheat -
are broadacre agribusiness farming.

Sorry, but you're wrong. There may well be a lot of small farms, but
unless you can show some figures showing they produce a significant
amount of food, they simply don't count economically.

And, like it or not, you're in a global economy. Your oil comes from
overseas. Increasingly minerals come from overseas. You aren't self
sufficient in much if anything including food probably, once the lack
of chemicals and fuels are factored in (broadacre farming only works
with a high energy budget). Most 1st World economies are the same. I
don't particularly like this myself, but it's still a fact.

As a matter of national strategy I can see making a case for food self
sufficiency in basic foodstuffs. However this *always* gets rorted and
you end up with export mountains (funded by taxpayers) dumped to try to
salvage something. In the process you trash other economies. That's
both the USA and the EU.

Don't even start me on sugar.

PDW

Michigan fruit farmers are almost all calssified as small farms"
http://web1.msue.msu.edu/fruit/

same with sugar beet growers...

http://www.ipmcenters.org/cropprofil...ugarbeets.html

For that matter, most of the people I know who sow corn and wheat
have 300-600 acre farms, are family run, and sell off to coops or at
the local granary...same with beef production in Michigan. We have
two farms that raise beef within 5 miles of our house. One farm has
a herd of about 100 cattle while the other has less...that is the
norm for beef and daity farms in Western Michigan. I've lived there
for all but a short part of my life and am very familiar what does
and does not exist there...

Maxprop wrote:
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

In article . net,
Maxprop wrote:


"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
om...



So - tell me why you own a French yacht when there are so many more
expensive and inferior US made ones available.


She bought her boat used, Pete. It was the best boat available in her
price
range at the time.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Point is, tho, that Katy coulda bought a new US
made boat for a higher price and thereby supported US industry. It
might have been a smaller boat, or a worse equipped boat, or whatever,
of course.


They had just sold their smaller, US-built boat, and another smaller
US-built boat before that, IIRC. Chanteuse was a substantial size upgrade.

27 feet to 30 ft and 4 inches is a substantial size difference? And
both the previous boats were very old...the upkeep on them was
horrendous and the 27 had an atomic 4 that was going to need to be
replaced...Neither had any great value and the 22' sailed for crap
(shoal draft)...we upgraded to a boat with diesel and a wheel (27
was a tiller boat and Mr Sails has had rotator cuff surgery...)


So - what's the difference with foodstuffs? Why insist that people have
to buy US grown produce instead of cheaper imported produce, when the
same logic isn't applied to other items - like boats.

That's my point.


Your point is correct. The vast majority of goods sold in the USA are of
foreign manufacture now. I'm always a bit amazed when I discover the
product I've bought is of local manufacture. Last figures I saw said the
trade deficit between the US and China was something like 78-22. One only
has to watch container ships entering and leaving San Francisco Bay to see
this--the incoming are loaded and way down on their waterlines, while the
departing vessels have empty containers and are riding high.

Max


The major problem is that American manufactureres ignored the fact
that this was going to happen. When Mr Sails worked for Steelcase,
his team dragged in a desk made by HON to a presentation and
indicated that that was the future of office furniture and that
tghey should eatablish a competitive line. But the PTB's said
"absolutely not". We would be lowering our standards. Problem was,
though, that unless they bought used, the average small business
owner, which is still the heart of America but is fading fast, could
not afford Steelcase furniture. The average doctor could not
decorate his waiting room with Steelcase designs. So they ignored
the American public, holding out for governemnt contracts. And then
9/11 hit and it was all over. America has sold herself out by not
having the foresight to change with the changing world.