Maxprop wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message


No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper
and
similarly-sized crew.

Not true.


Explanation of your response, please.


The boat heels in response to
1- the amount of wind
2- the way the sails are trimmed

If there's a LOT of wind, then yes the boat will heel... even with no
sails up at all. In normal sailing winds, it is quite possible to trim
for 5 degrees windward heel. This is not new, it was fairly common
advice... yet very rarely followed... back in the 1960s.

One thing that is new, and that I have not tried, is Oz1's advice that
fancy plastic sails don't need to be heeled to take shape in very light air.



Yep. The boat accelerates much better and if it's one of those gawd-awful
days with chop & light air, it can go thru the lumpy parts better.


I agree that it does, but what is your explanation for this effect?


???

Why do I have to explain it?



It doesn't take a heavy crew, even.


Not in light air. That's what I said originally.


Nor in moderate air... if you're in control of the boat and not vice-versa.


OTOH there are times when I like a lot of heel, like just before a tack



For roll-tacking?


Bingo.

DSK

If there's a LOT of wind, then yes the boat will heel...


Really and truly????
Doug, you're an idiot.

RB
35s5
NY

"DSK" wrote in message
news
Maxprop wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message


No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel
when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper
and
similarly-sized crew.

Not true.


Explanation of your response, please.


The boat heels in response to
1- the amount of wind
2- the way the sails are trimmed

If there's a LOT of wind, then yes the boat will heel... even with no
sails up at all. In normal sailing winds, it is quite possible to trim for
5 degrees windward heel. This is not new, it was fairly common advice...
yet very rarely followed... back in the 1960s.

I can't imagine what sort of trim would heel a close-hauled boat to windward
in normal (non-drifter) winds,WITHOUT the addition of hiking railmeat. But
I'm open to learn.

One thing that is new, and that I have not tried, is Oz1's advice that
fancy plastic sails don't need to be heeled to take shape in very light
air.

Fully-battened mains will obviously stay in shape, even when heeled to
windward. But I wasn't aware that the same thing could be achieved with
some of the new sheet laminate headsails.

Yep. The boat accelerates much better and if it's one of those gawd-awful
days with chop & light air, it can go thru the lumpy parts better.


I agree that it does, but what is your explanation for this effect?


???

Why do I have to explain it?

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, but there must be some
reason for it. I was just curious, not interogative.

It doesn't take a heavy crew, even.


Not in light air. That's what I said originally.


Nor in moderate air... if you're in control of the boat and not
vice-versa.

Depends upon your definition of "moderate air," and whether you're sailing a
dinghy or a more substantial keel boat. A dinghy is easy to keep bolt
upright in moderate air, but a keel boat will be somewhat more difficult
unless one has a hefty crew complement on the weather rail.



OTOH there are times when I like a lot of heel, like just before a tack



For roll-tacking?


Bingo.

Roll-tacking was not allowed in Snipe events when I raced them. Now
apparently it's SOP. When just sailing around the lake with friends or my
wife, I used to roll-tack the Snipe and found it to be a very effective way
to power through the tack. This was long before discussions of the maneuver
hit the sailing press. Later I used it routinely when racing Lasers, but
finally was DSQ'd in one race in a regatta in Michigan for using "disallowed
kinetics." Forced to stop, it ****ed me off so thoroughly that I sold the
Laser and quit dingy racing altogether. It was a bitter pill to discover
that years later it was considered okay.

Max

Geesh, Max, hold old are you? Roll tacking has
been acceptable for as long as I can remember.
They're just now beginning to crack down on
kinetics. And in my opinion, the Laser class
overlooks more kinetics than any other class. You
can always spot the Laser sailors when they
sailing in another class. They're the ones
ooching, sculling, pumping, torquing, and roll
jibing every 30 seconds. Interestingly, they're
also the ones not getting along with their crew.
Kind of explains why they single hand.
S.
"Maxprop" wrote in message
k.net...
:: Roll-tacking was not allowed in Snipe events
when I raced them. Now
: apparently it's SOP. When just sailing around
the lake with friends or my
: wife, I used to roll-tack the Snipe and found it
to be a very effective way
: to power through the tack. This was long before
discussions of the maneuver
: hit the sailing press. Later I used it
routinely when racing Lasers, but
: finally was DSQ'd in one race in a regatta in
Michigan for using "disallowed
: kinetics." Forced to stop, it ****ed me off so
thoroughly that I sold the
: Laser and quit dingy racing altogether. It was
a bitter pill to discover
: that years later it was considered okay.
:
: Max
:
:

"NotPony" wrote in messag

Geesh, Max, hold old are you? Roll tacking has
been acceptable for as long as I can remember.

I sailed Snipes in the early 70s. The SCIRA rule book, at that time,
prohibited "ooching, sculling, pumping, rocking, and any other kinetic
movements which might give the competitor an unfair advantage." I never
roll tacked in a race, but did so all the time while just day sailing the
boat. The Snipe roll tacks as well as any boat I've sailed, which is
probably why Snipe sailors all do it these days.

They're just now beginning to crack down on
kinetics. And in my opinion, the Laser class
overlooks more kinetics than any other class.

When I began to sail Lasers in '72, no one was roll tacking except me and a
few others from fleets in and around Detroit and Indianapolis. (I can't
honestly say what was happening out West or East, however.) Other skippers
used to ask me what I was doing, and I was always happy to oblige with info
and instructions on how to do it. Unfortunately one of them was a district
officer who took my information back to a national meeting at which kinetics
were deemed "unfair." The following spring I sailed in a regatta on the
Detroit River and was DSQ'd in a race for roll-tacking. I still won my
class, but that race was my throwout. Lucky for me it was my second to last
race, because I did poorly in the last race after being told I'd be DSQ'd if
I roll tacked even once. ****ed off, I sold the boat, and three years
later everyone was roll-tacking Lasers. The national big wigs must have had
a change of heart, or at least decided they'd be unable to stop something
that everyone was doing by then.

You
can always spot the Laser sailors when they
sailing in another class. They're the ones
ooching, sculling, pumping, torquing, and roll
jibing every 30 seconds. Interestingly, they're
also the ones not getting along with their crew.
Kind of explains why they single hand.

Actually it's that they normally single hand that makes them unable to get
along with crew. After single handing for a year or so, I found it
frustrating to go back to having a crew (my wife) who couldn't read my mind.
It was simply awful to have to vocalize intentions and instructions again.
After dumping the Laser, I bought another Snipe and regretted it for the
entire season. Sold it in the Fall. It was either that or face the
prospect of divorce. g It was a good decision, because we've been married
for almost 35 years.

Max

Maxprop wrote:
"NotPony" wrote in messag

Geesh, Max, hold old are you? Roll tacking has
been acceptable for as long as I can remember.

I sailed Snipes in the early 70s. The SCIRA rule book, at that time,
prohibited "ooching, sculling, pumping, rocking, and any other kinetic
movements which might give the competitor an unfair advantage."
....

There was a lot of debate in the late '60's as to whether roll tacking
was considered kinetics. I was taught in 1965 to roll tack, but to
avoid doing it aggressively or too frequently. That is, it was OK to
do it to avoid losing ground on a tack, but not OK if you were gaining.

I remember a day when it was absolutely dead calm and a dozen teams
were sitting on the dock waiting for a breeze, and one team challenged
another to a roll tack race. Four or five teams hopped in their Tech
Dinghies and started roll tacking around the river. Several were so
good they seemed to be doing 2 or 3 knots! It was a bit of an eye
opener for me.

Jeff wrote....


I remember a day when it was absolutely dead calm and we motored.
Winds picked up and still we motored. Everyone was sailing, heeled over
and really feeling it. We have a multihull. We motored and motored and
motored....and motored some more.

Jeff

Capt. Rob wrote:
Jeff wrote....


I remember a day when it was absolutely dead calm and we motored.
Winds picked up and still we motored.
....

Wow, that's really funny, Bob. Perhaps your most creative yet.

But seriously, what are you going to do now that you know that your
new boat is such a dog in light air it needs and extra 24 seconds/mile
handicap to stay with the Catalinas and Hunters? It sure looks like
this "stepping stone" was a step backwards in performance.

Good research, there, Bob. At least you have A/C so it won't be so
horrific sitting at the dock.

One of the problems is that coaches, particularly
on the college, level aren't making sure the
sailors understand the rules. One of the coaches
I hired was sailing in one of our fun races. He
was continually pumping upwind in about 5k. I
pulled him aside later and told him he was
breaking rule 42. He and another college sailor
told me that their coaches had told them that
pumping was ok on the basis of 'once per wave'.
Neither of them had a copy of a rule book (kind of
dumb in my opinion) so I pointed out 42.2 and 42.3
Yeah, once per wave, but not beating and only if
surfing or planing is possible.
S.

"Maxprop" wrote in message
.net...
: I sailed Snipes in the early 70s. The SCIRA
rule book, at that time,
: prohibited "ooching, sculling, pumping, rocking,
and any other kinetic
: movements which might give the competitor an
unfair advantage." I never
: roll tacked in a race, but did so all the time
while just day sailing the
: boat. The Snipe roll tacks as well as any boat
I've sailed, which is
: probably why Snipe sailors all do it these days.
:
: They're just now beginning to crack down on
: kinetics. And in my opinion, the Laser class
: overlooks more kinetics than any other class.
:
: When I began to sail Lasers in '72, no one was
roll tacking except me and a
: few others from fleets in and around Detroit and
Indianapolis. (I can't
: honestly say what was happening out West or
East, however.) Other skippers
: used to ask me what I was doing, and I was
always happy to oblige with info
: and instructions on how to do it. Unfortunately
one of them was a district
: officer who took my information back to a
national meeting at which kinetics
: were deemed "unfair." The following spring I
sailed in a regatta on the
: Detroit River and was DSQ'd in a race for
roll-tacking. I still won my
: class, but that race was my throwout. Lucky for
me it was my second to last
: race, because I did poorly in the last race
after being told I'd be DSQ'd if
: I roll tacked even once. ****ed off, I sold the
boat, and three years
: later everyone was roll-tacking Lasers. The
national big wigs must have had
: a change of heart, or at least decided they'd be
unable to stop something
: that everyone was doing by then.
:
: You
: can always spot the Laser sailors when they
: sailing in another class. They're the ones
: ooching, sculling, pumping, torquing, and roll
: jibing every 30 seconds. Interestingly,
they're
: also the ones not getting along with their
crew.
: Kind of explains why they single hand.
:
: Actually it's that they normally single hand
that makes them unable to get
: along with crew. After single handing for a
year or so, I found it
: frustrating to go back to having a crew (my
wife) who couldn't read my mind.
: It was simply awful to have to vocalize
intentions and instructions again.
: After dumping the Laser, I bought another Snipe
and regretted it for the
: entire season. Sold it in the Fall. It was
either that or face the
: prospect of divorce. g It was a good
decision, because we've been married
: for almost 35 years.
:
: Max
:
:

Maxprop wrote:
I can't imagine what sort of trim would heel a close-hauled boat to windward
in normal (non-drifter) winds,WITHOUT the addition of hiking railmeat. But
I'm open to learn.


It doesn't take much "rail meat," but it does take hiking.


Fully-battened mains will obviously stay in shape, even when heeled to
windward.

They will, kinda sort-of. Not well wnough to sail as efficiently as with
a little heel, though.


... But I wasn't aware that the same thing could be achieved with
some of the new sheet laminate headsails.


I wasn't eaither but would like to see it.



Yep. The boat accelerates much better and if it's one of those gawd-awful
days with chop & light air, it can go thru the lumpy parts better.


I agree that it does, but what is your explanation for this effect?


???

Why do I have to explain it?


You don't have to do anything you don't want to do, but there must be some
reason for it. I was just curious, not interogative.


I don't really know, although I have some possibilities in mind.
More power, for starters.



Depends upon your definition of "moderate air," and whether you're sailing a
dinghy or a more substantial keel boat.

Nope.

Only a boat that will be affected by crew weight.



Roll-tacking was not allowed in Snipe events when I raced them.

???

Roll tacking has always been allowed. Now, there have always been rules
against various forms of propulsion, some of which are suspiciously
close to sailing but are deemed inappropriate... or ungentlemanly, or
something.

If one were to roll-tack one's way up the windward leg, using each tack
simply for propulsion and not because of windshifts or competitors, that
would be illegal, then & now.



... Later I used it routinely when racing Lasers, but
finally was DSQ'd in one race in a regatta in Michigan for using "disallowed
kinetics." Forced to stop, it ****ed me off so thoroughly that I sold the
Laser and quit dingy racing altogether. It was a bitter pill to discover
that years later it was considered okay.

Seems to be the prevalent mode of light-air sailing in college, which is
a shame.

My rule of thumb- don't use kinetics any more than the top few boats
are. And practice, so that if they are busy sawing loas across the race
course, you can do it better & faster. In fact, I have occasionally
complained to other skippers that they were getting a bit heavy handed
on the rocking & pumping, got ignored, and rock/pumped my way past,
whereupon I stopped & grinned back at them. Point made.


If you get DSQ'd you should honestly be able to say (and hopefully get
the backing of a few other skippers) "I was doing exactly what the other
boats were doing, so DSQ them also."

Fresh Breezes- Doug King