Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
heavy wind and chop... the howling wind... the LIS area.

Now that's even funnier!

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

heavy wind and chop... the howling wind... the LIS area.

Now that's even funnier!


You haven't been following the action. The sea trial of Windward First
was in St. Petersburg, FL. and the tail end of the tropical storm was
still evident. In fact it delayed my flight coming back that night.

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much.

I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message

Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think
this is a discussion worth having.

The fine art of pointing encompasses more than just having a boat that
sails closely to the wind. When racing, the weather course made good will
depend upon a number of factors. An adroit skipper can sail a higher CMG
with a boat that doesn't sail as closely to the wind than a poorer skipper
will with a boat that theoretically points higher. Keeping the boat on
its feet (upright) is one factor. Another is maintaining sufficient speed
to be able to periodically feather into the wind without slowing
appreciably. This is where skill really shines. Sailing a high CMG often
requires footing off periodically, especially in light air, to maintain
boat speed to allow feathering and to prevent leeward slippage. Puffs can
enable a boat to point higher as well, provided boat speed is maintained.
Inexperienced skippers tend to pinch when following faster boats--the
perception is that those boats are "pointing" higher than he, so he
pinches in attempt to equal their pointing ability, effectively slowing
himself down and losing ground to leeward. The direction in which the
boat is aimed often has little to do with how well the boat is "pointing."

There's more to it, but that's a good start.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much.

No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and
similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will
generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also keeps
the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally.

I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air.

Feathering is the act of turning the boat into the wind (somewhat) during
puffs and when moving well, but it is done only briefly, with a feel for the
inevitable loss of speed that accompanies such a maneuver. At the first
sign of the boat beginning to slow, the boat is pulled back to its original
course. Learning to feather a boat to windward can make a big difference,
especially when attempting to make a mark that is just above the rhumb line.
Essentially it is the act of trading speed and momentum for pointing
ability. Feathering is difficult in light air, and ill advised in drifter
conditions.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in
any boat.
RB
35s5-firmly inshore
NY


Bwahhahhahahhahhahhahhahahhahhahahhahhahahhahahhah hahahhahaha

Don't blame the kid, bubbles.
Are you going to paint your new boat yellow?

Bwahhhahhahahhahhahahhahhahahhahahhahhahhahahhahah hahahhahahhaha

John Cairns

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

*Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take
the
Swan any day.

Wow...you really went out on a limb there! Next you'll tell us that
you'd take Pam Anderson over Judy Dench.

You wouldn't???

But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore
passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality.

Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in
any boat.

Probably a good thing for both Thomas AND you.


Now that
you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5.
Sounds
like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me.

That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education
about some of the Beneteau line.

Education, or just buying into the advertising hype?

I don't have a high opinion of the
latest Beneteau boats, especially the Oceanus series. Did you know that
brokers are currently fighting with BeneteauUSA to make fit and finish
improvements because quality has fallen badly?

I'd heard something about that. We inspected a 393 at a boat show last year
and were disappointed in the interior fit and finish. Externally the boat
seemed pretty typically Beneteau.

Go look at a new
one...even a First series. Mark at Doyle loved the way his 36.7 sailed,
but said the interior is crap compared to my boat.

Was your boat built in South Carolina or France? Could that be a factor?

Of course we
observed this ourselves. He himself laughed that he was a Beneteau
basher...and then he sailed a first series boat. The combo of
performance and cruisability for these waters is essentially unmatched
anywhere near the price.
Go ahead...try to match it. Doug couldn't.
That's not to say the 35s5 is ideal for everyone. It's a handful at
times and requires more work to sail than say a Catalina 40 or Island
Packet 35. But that's what we wanted!
All I can add is that we took Windward First out in some pretty heavy
wind and chop and it was simply a blast! Reefed under main alone, she
still sailed like a quick dinghy and aside from the howling wind, it
was very relaxed and composed. This is a great boat for the LIS area.

I happen to like Beneteaus in general. I've never been a Beneteau-basher.
A close friend just bought a 445, which is an ex-charter boat, identical to
the one we sailed in the BVI a couple of years back. While it isn't a real
show-stopper in terms of quality, fit, and finish, it ain't bad. And it is
fast and capacious. It meets his needs very nicely, and he and his wife and
kids will love it, I'm sure.

What I was objecting to in your diatribe was comparing your boat with boats
obviously built to a higher standard and with greater integrity of hull and
rig, designed for conditions that your boat was not. If you were honest
you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a Wauquiez,
Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more. Then again you
didn't have to mortgage the Empire State Building to buy your boat.
Everything is a trade-off in life. Boats are no exception. Beneteau builds
a decent boat for the buck, better than Hunter or Catalina, IMO.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education
about some of the Beneteau line.

Education, or just buying into the advertising hype?

More like owner, reviewer, surveyor hype. Working for a full service
yard means I can get the straight dope on a lot of boats. See below.

but said the interior is crap compared to my boat.
Was your boat built in South Carolina or France? Could that be a
factor?

Ahhh. Either you know something more than you're indicating or it's a
lucky shot. 35s5 interiors were indeed made in overseas and to a much
higher standard. I only wish the 36.7 had the same quality or even the
bigger Firsts.

happen to like Beneteaus in general. I've never been a
Beneteau-basher.

I'm sorry to say that I'm still a Benny basher of sorts. I think the
newer boats have quality control issues and poorly fit interiors.
Design wise they are excellent. It's the execution I'm less than
thrilled with. I won't defend bad boats just because they carry the
same label of MY boat. Beneteau should improve quality to match Hunter,
who has made big improvements, even if you don't like their designs.

If you were honest
you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a
Wauquiez,
Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more.

I don't know enough to to comment on the Wauquiez...have only looked at
one, Sweden quality is variable and the cabin sucks for anyone over 6
feet. J boat is no where near the quality and problem free nature of
the 35s5. J-Boat hulls are a disaster and wet decks are common. Don't
even both citing racing as a cause. J34c's are know for problems and
they are for the same market at the 35s5. But only two 35s5's were
found (by me) to have deck problems and both were in small areas due to
a mast drop and poor aftermarket hardware installation. As you know,
the 35s5 hull is NOT cored. The rig is rod rigging and the chainplates
are FAR superior to J-Boat's system on their boats of the late 80's and
early 90s. Maxprop, I don't think you realize that Beneteau has had
some above average boats score higher than others...among them the 345
and 35s5. A Swan is a true semi custome boat with a level of quality
equalled by few...along with the price. Talking with Surveyors and
yards teaches a person that the differences between a Catalina 350 and
a Tartan 3500 are not a big as Tartan would hope to have you believe.
The 35s5 is well regarded in Europe as an offshore racer/cruiser and
has very few reported problems. The ex charter versions appear to have
stood up well according to owners.
As far as Hunter or Catalina...while it's popular to bash them as well,
they're really not much different from the Tartan either when it comes
to real world quality differences. Any of these boats can generally be
sailed anywhere with some simple modifications and it's done all the
time.

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel, but it may not
be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind, it seems like you
would want some heel.

I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say
something about falling off before attempting to heading up.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much.

No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and
similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will
generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also
keeps the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally.

I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air.

Feathering is the act of turning the boat into the wind (somewhat) during
puffs and when moving well, but it is done only briefly, with a feel for
the inevitable loss of speed that accompanies such a maneuver. At the
first sign of the boat beginning to slow, the boat is pulled back to its
original course. Learning to feather a boat to windward can make a big
difference, especially when attempting to make a mark that is just above
the rhumb line. Essentially it is the act of trading speed and momentum
for pointing ability. Feathering is difficult in light air, and ill
advised in drifter conditions.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:29:49 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much.

No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and
similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will
generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also
keeps
the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally.

Rubbish!

"Rubbish" hardly makes a valid statement. If you disagree, fine--but make
your argument. Otherwise you're wasting our time and bandwidth.


Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel,

I'm open to learning under what conditions this may be true. I can't
conceive of it, however. If the boat is hard on the wind and there IS wind,
a boat will heel, unless it's one of those redundant-hull thingys that Oz
sails.

but it may not be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind,
it seems like you would want some heel.

You'll always have *some* heel, but minimizing it is advantageous for a
number of reasons. If this weren't true, why all the railmeat on maxi
boats? Dinghies are generally best sailed, in all but very light winds,
with a minimum of heel. Big boats are no different, unless they are
classics with long overhangs which increase effective waterline when heeled.


I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say
something about falling off before attempting to heading up.

I've always interpreted "pinching" as simply sailing too close to the wind.
An example would be a boat with the ability to sail at, say, 30 degrees to
the relative wind. Pinching would be to sail it along at 27 degrees, and
footing would be at 35 degrees, plus or minus. Feathering is, according to
Snipe guru Ted Wells, alternating between footing and pinching, but
maintaining speed by spending only that amount of time pinching that won't
denigrate boat speed significantly. It's an active process, with the
skipper moving the helm quite a bit.

There are some experienced skippers who prefer to find that sweet spot when
hard on the wind, holding the helm very still. I can generally outpoint
them, but they do seem to win their share of races. It's just another
school of thought.

Max