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Thank You JEFF!!!
Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing
enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included healing and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine. On a long reach Jeff's boat is faster, but in any real race on various tacks, the PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course. So...in Jeff's OWN WORDS, ladies and gentlemen... "It won't point too high (45-50 degrees true) but it will go upwind side by side with any cruising boat. Foot off 5 to 10 degrees, and it takes off like a bandit. Tacking is tedious, it certainly isn't good for short tacking out a channel. Light air is another sore point, because the large wetted surface starts to dominate. However, in 10 knots and over will do about half the wind speed. It continues to hold this ratio up to 12 to 15 knots of boat speed, depending on how long you hold off on reefing." And so...with winds below 10 knots MANY times in MANY areas, the PDQ gets an engine workout. With limited upwind performance the engines get another workout. 45-50 degrees is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I bet newer multis manage better. On the LIS these boats have to be motored much of the time and these are otherwise classic sailing grounds hosting some great sailing events. We see few Multi's sailing and for good reason...sooner or later you need to sail upwind better than 50 degrees! RB 35s5...the best performing boat here! NY |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Capt. Rob wrote:
Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included healing and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine. On a long reach Jeff's boat is faster, but in any real race on various tacks, the PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course. You don't even know what a sailing race course looks like, or how one gets arund it. All he'd do is more tacks on the upwind legs - and then thrash the monohulls on the reaches and downwind legs. degrees! RB...the best performing clown here! 35s5 NY -- Capt Scumbalino |
Thank You JEFF!!!
You don't even know what a sailing race course looks like, or how one
gets arund it. All he'd do is more tacks on the upwind legs - and then thrash the monohulls on the reaches and downwind legs. That thing tacks like a bufallo for one. Second, he's not thrashing anyone unless he has conditions and wind to do it. The better pointing boat is the better performing boat. So it has been and always shall be. Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair conditions off a 10 degree deficit? Do you know how that would effect his VMG versus a high pointing monohull? And what of the more common light air? PDQ 36 is a cruiser with a very fast off the wind ability, but a performance boat it aint. RB 35s5...a real performance boat NY |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Capt. Rob wrote:
... The better pointing boat is the better performing boat. So it has been and always shall be. Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair conditions off a 10 degree deficit? Do you know how that would effect his VMG versus a high pointing monohull? ... There's more to racing than going upwind, and more to even that than simply pointing the highest. If you think otherwise, then you have no clue about racing. -- Capt Scumbalino |
Thank You JEFF!!!
There's more to racing than going upwind, and more to even that than
simply pointing the highest. If you think otherwise, then you have no clue about racing. Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have said the higher pointing boat has the advantage. VMG across the widest possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of sailing performance in fact. Wish I'd written that! For a boat to be considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind. Upwind it was a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that tacking is tedious! Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind. RB 35s5 NY |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Hey, Jeff. Suppose you agree to go to the LIS to
meet bs (since there's no chance he'd ever go to meet you), and you accept his race challenge. It's blowing about 10k. He's beating to windward @ 36° making 4.7k - decent performance. But, you, with your loaded-for-cruising slug that can't point, foot off to about 50°, but in doing so are holding 6.5k. Yeah, you're faster, but you're not pointing. Then, down wind, he's sailing 170° making about 4.5k and you reach off to about 150° and are making just over 6k. Again, you're faster, but he's sailing closer to the mark. Can't you just accept the fact that his boat is better because he can point higher? S. "Capt. Rob" wrote in message oups.com... : That thing tacks like a bufallo for one. Second, he's not thrashing : anyone unless he has conditions and wind to do it. The better pointing : boat is the better performing boat. So it has been and always shall be. : Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair conditions off a 10 degree : deficit? Do you know how that would effect his VMG versus a high : pointing monohull? And what of the more common light air? : PDQ 36 is a cruiser with a very fast off the wind ability, but a : performance boat it aint. : : : RB : 35s5...a real performance boat : NY : |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message oups.com... Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T! Scotty |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T!
Then how come so many folks can afford a Multi and don't have one? Where's your multi? Where's mine? Where's Loco's? How come Doug says he's looking at a C&C and not a multi? Where's Bart's multi? Ganz seems to want one. Not me. Someone has to speak up for the group during hard times. Do you want a boat that is "tedious to tack?" Do you want a boat that "won't point higher than 45-50 degrees"? I am the chosen one, Skywalker! RB 35s5...the top performing boat here! NY |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Capt. Rob wrote:
Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included healing and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine. On a long reach Jeff's boat is faster, but in any real race on various tacks, the PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course. Finally admitted??? I finally admitted that cats don't point well??? And that's thats the best you've got? Booby, have you ever heard of VMG? Pointing ability is only one component of going upwind, speed is another. We don't have the polars for either of our boats, but we can make some guesses. Here's the polar for a Beneteau First 407, designed by Farr, and a much better upwind performer than yours: http://www.1stsailing.com/Boats/BoaI...hnicalData.jpg Speed at 45 degrees true tops out at a bit over 7 knots. Multiplying by the cosine of 45 degrees (0.707), we get a VMG (Velocity Made Good) of about 5. The Benny can point a tad higher, but if it loses even half a knot the VMG drops. The actual optimum point may be 40-42 degrees but there is actually very little difference between that and 45, except on the race course where pointing can be a tactical advantage. So how does this compare to a 35s5? The 407 has PHRF of 57 compared to around 130 for the smaller version, so that's over a minute a mile or at perhaps 10% on VMG. So the upper limit of VMG for the 35s5 might be 4.5 knots. Now, how about a cat? If we foot off all the way to 60 degrees true, VMG will be half of boat speed, so we have to do 9 knots, which the PDQ will do in 18 knots. Of course the comment of 60 degrees is fairly approximate, if the optimum is actually at 55 degrees, then the cat only has to do a bit over 8 knots to beat the monohull. Its pretty clear that in a breeze, the cat can keep up with, or even beat a Benny upwind. In lighter air the cat's speed will drop off faster, so upwind the cat will fall behind. But this is only part of the story. We haven't factored in leeway. The Benny may point at 45 degrees, but what's its actually course? Heeled on its ear, its making at least 3 degrees of leeway, considerably more if its puffy. At 3 degrees the hit to VMG is 5%, at 5 degrees the hit is over 10%. In fact, on a puffy day, it takes considerable skill and attention to get the most of the Benny. The cat, on the other hand, will be going flat and fast at 60 degree true, with minimal work. A number of times we've blown past a mono stalled out in a puff, heeled over, making maybe 15 degrees leeway, sometime worse. So what's the true break even point? It would depend a lot on the conditions. In protected fla****er and steady wind, it might be 16 knots, add a chop and puffs and it might be 12 knots of wind. With a full crew in a race the benny might do better; shorthanded the cat is easier to keep moving. On a small race course, a mono certainly has a tactical advantage, but remember that the small version of my cat races at a PHRF equivalent of about 104. This is before we take into account Bob's primary claim, that most people prefer a boat the heels and goes upwind as fast as possible, especially in light air. Frankly, I don't care what "most" people prefer, I only care what suits my needs. Certainly, if your sailing is limited to a few hours of daysailing, its understandable that you want to get the most "sailing" out of it. In fact, I sail at a local club where I can take out a racing dink, or more likely a Rhodes 19, so I can do some daysailing and get the real "experience." But my purpose in having a larger boat is to go cruising, which usually means traveling 100 miles or more to interesting destinations. I have no desire so spend a whole day heeled over 40 degrees, or making 2 knots VMG upwind in light air. In fact, I never heard a cruiser say they want to heel more, and there are rather few that will "take what comes" and wander around in a drifter. Go ask at any cruising anchorage and you'll that 90% of the would prefer to sail flatter, and most would fire up the engine when the VMG goes below half of their normal "good" speed. So...in Jeff's OWN WORDS, ladies and gentlemen... I know what I said, and stand by it. Does Bob know what he's talking about? Doubtful. And so...with winds below 10 knots MANY times in MANY areas, the PDQ gets an engine workout. So would many other boats. Do you have a point? Cruising boats often don't do well in light air??? What a revelation!! With limited upwind performance the engines get another workout. 45-50 degrees is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Then you better get rid of your Bendy, because it doesn't do significantly better than 45 degrees. You really don't know anything about sailing, do you, Bob? I bet newer multis manage better. Sure, lots have daggerboards. In fact, you could buy my boat with daggerboards. I didn't have that option at the time, but it isn't something I would want to sacrifice convenience and interior space for. Raising the VMG from 2 to 3 knots doesn't mean much - I've freely admitted I probably be powering at 8 knots in that case. And so would most other cruisers. On the LIS these boats have to be motored much of the time and these are otherwise classic sailing grounds hosting some great sailing events. We see few Multi's sailing and for good reason...sooner or later you need to sail upwind better than 50 degrees! Gee, do you think maybe that's why I said this boat is an appropriate choice for you? I'll say it again: A Beneteau 35s5 is possibly the best boat for someone who only sails 5 miles from his slip in light air. Are you happy now? RB 35s5...the best performing boat on LIS, but not anyplace a real sailor would want to be! NY |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Capt. Rob wrote:
VMG across the widest possible range is what determines perfomance. Widest possible range of what? The PDQ and other cats like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of the market. Are you trying to imply you're a "cruiser-racer" or "racer-cruiser" type? -- Capt Scumbalino |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Capt. Rob wrote:
Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. But the tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included healing and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine. On a long reach Jeff's boat is faster, but in any real race on various tacks, the PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course. So...in Jeff's OWN WORDS, ladies and gentlemen... "It won't point too high (45-50 degrees true) but it will go upwind side by side with any cruising boat. Foot off 5 to 10 degrees, and it takes off like a bandit. Tacking is tedious, it certainly isn't good for short tacking out a channel. Light air is another sore point, because the large wetted surface starts to dominate. However, in 10 knots and over will do about half the wind speed. It continues to hold this ratio up to 12 to 15 knots of boat speed, depending on how long you hold off on reefing." And so...with winds below 10 knots MANY times in MANY areas, the PDQ gets an engine workout. With limited upwind performance the engines get another workout. 45-50 degrees is NOT ACCEPTABLE. I bet newer multis manage better. On the LIS these boats have to be motored much of the time and these are otherwise classic sailing grounds hosting some great sailing events. We see few Multi's sailing and for good reason...sooner or later you need to sail upwind better than 50 degrees! RB 35s5...the best performing boat here! NY The fact that every record in ocean racing is being set by multihulls kinda pokes holes in everything you say. It doesn't matter how high you can point if you go twice as fast 10 degrees lower. Where I race, in light airs or big winds the first boat home is always a multihull. Gaz |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Capt. Rob wrote:
There's more to racing than going upwind, and more to even that than simply pointing the highest. If you think otherwise, then you have no clue about racing. Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have said the higher pointing boat has the advantage. VMG across the widest possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of sailing performance in fact. Wish I'd written that! For a boat to be considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind. Upwind it was a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that tacking is tedious! Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind. RB 35s5 NY You are comparing apples and oranges. Try the same comparison using your 35s5 and a Ferrier (any size). The PDQ is in a different league. Compare it with the Nordica. Gaz |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Capt. Rob wrote:
Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T! Then how come so many folks can afford a Multi and don't have one? So many can afford??? The single biggest problem with cats is that they're expensive. While there are lot of small cruising boats for $20K, its hard to find a good cat used for under $80K. And since the smaller ones don't work that well, the entry for a true long distance cruiser is well over $100K. Where's your multi? Where's mine? Where's Loco's? How come Doug says he's looking at a C&C and not a multi? Where's Bart's multi? Ganz seems to want one. Not me. So how many have said your boat would be their first choice? Someone has to speak up for the group during hard times. Hard times? Is that what you call it when you buy a boat? Do you want a boat that is "tedious to tack?" Do you want a boat that "won't point higher than 45-50 degrees"? Hopefully you did, because that's what you bought! If you wanted to point higher without pinching, you would have got the deep keel! I am the frozen one, Skywalker! RB 35s5...the top performing boat in my slip! NY |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Sure, it must be better because it points higher.
Of course, he can't use the head while underway! This could explain why he claims that past Execution Rock (3 miles from his slip) is "deep into the Sound"! Going any further would be horrific! NotPony wrote: Hey, Jeff. Suppose you agree to go to the LIS to meet bs (since there's no chance he'd ever go to meet you), and you accept his race challenge. It's blowing about 10k. He's beating to windward @ 36° making 4.7k - decent performance. But, you, with your loaded-for-cruising slug that can't point, foot off to about 50°, but in doing so are holding 6.5k. Yeah, you're faster, but you're not pointing. Then, down wind, he's sailing 170° making about 4.5k and you reach off to about 150° and are making just over 6k. Again, you're faster, but he's sailing closer to the mark. Can't you just accept the fact that his boat is better because he can point higher? S. "Capt. Rob" wrote in message oups.com... : That thing tacks like a bufallo for one. Second, he's not thrashing : anyone unless he has conditions and wind to do it. The better pointing : boat is the better performing boat. So it has been and always shall be. : Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair conditions off a 10 degree : deficit? Do you know how that would effect his VMG versus a high : pointing monohull? And what of the more common light air? : PDQ 36 is a cruiser with a very fast off the wind ability, but a : performance boat it aint. : : : RB : 35s5...a real performance boat : NY : |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message Jeff has finally admitted the reasons why, for many sailing enthusiasts, a cat like the PDQ 36 can't be considered. As a family cruiser platform it certainly offers a stable platform. Well, yes. But the tradition of sailing is what most of us prefer, and that included healing I believe this would only apply to boats owned by doctors and faith healers. and the most important thing of all....Upwind ability where a multi faulters 10 degrees or more away from a boat like mine. So? He'll foot so much faster than your boat beats to weather that he'll make up the difference in distance traveled from mark to mark with speed. You *might* beat him to the weather mark, but on the reaching legs he'll leave you so far behind his wake won't even be visible. When rounding the leeward mark he'll be ahead of you by such a large margin you'll never catch him on the subsequent windward leg. On a long reach Jeff's boat is faster, Ya think? but in any real race on various tacks, the PDQ couldn't even STAY ON the course. It won't only stay on course, it'll already be tied up back at the yacht club while you're struggling to finish. Your 35s5 is a decent boat, Bubbles. You should accept that and quit attempting to denigrate everyone else's boat in order to make yours look superior. It is probably superior to some, and inferior to others. Are you unable to live with that? Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message That thing tacks like a bufallo for one. Cats don't come about in quite the same way as monohulls. You must steer them around in an arc while maintaining speed. Throwing the helm over just applies the brakes. So in a sense, a cat will maintain speed better than a monohull that crosses the wind like a buffalo (the correct spelling--perhaps you should use "ta tonka" instead--easier to spell) wallowing in the mud. Second, he's not thrashing anyone unless he has conditions and wind to do it. This is true of just about any boat in existence. No boat does well in all conditions. For example, Mooron's boat would give yours a thrashing in 20kts. or better. The better pointing boat is the better performing boat. This depends strictly upon the usage or task at hand. In around-the-buoys racing the higher the ability to point the better. In extended cruising it may be meaningless. So it has been and always shall be. Are you having delusions of godhood again, Bubbles? Tacks on the upwind even in reasonably fair conditions off a 10 degree deficit? Do you know how that would effect his VMG versus a high pointing monohull? I'd suggest you take the time to read Ted Well's book "Scientific Sailboat Racing" and learn something about the art of pointing. You obviously are clueless. And what of the more common light air? PDQ 36 is a cruiser with a very fast off the wind ability, but a performance boat it aint. Compared with a J120, your boat, too, is a slug. Everything's relative, Bubbles. Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Capt. Scumbalino" wrote in message If you think otherwise, then you have no clue about racing. You could have omitted the words "If you think otherwise, then". Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have said the higher pointing boat has the advantage. Only if the skipper has the knowledge and experience to utilize that advantage. The art of pointing involves a lot more than simply sailing as closely to the wind as possible. VMG across the widest possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of sailing performance in fact. VMG has more to do with the skipper than the boat. Paul Elvstrom proved that for decades, sailing inferior boats against superior ones with inferior skippers, and beating them easily. Wish I'd written that! What a lofty goal, to be able to coin a phrase suggesting something blatantly obvious. For a boat to be considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind. It is conceivable that some Geminis are owned and sailed by incompetent people. Upwind it was a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that tacking is tedious! Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of yachts. Reminds me of a guy who used to boast that his Cosworth Vega was in the same league as a Ferrari 248GTSi. and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind. And your 35s5, compared with similarly-sized cruising boats, is cramped, lightly constructed, uncomfortable in a seaway, and must be reefed early and often, not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at resale time. Everything's relative, Bubbles. Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Gary" wrote in message You are comparing apples and oranges. Try the same comparison using your 35s5 and a Ferrier (any size). The PDQ is in a different league. Compare it with the Nordica. He only compares his boat with those of ASA posters, Gary. He apparently doesn't have enough confidence in the intrinsic attributes of his boat to feel secure. Rather he must denigrate other's boats in order to feel that his is worthwhile. It's not unlike ugly women who ridicule beautiful females in order to feel less ugly. Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message Stop writing as if you speak for the rest of us.... YOU DON'T! Then how come so many folks can afford a Multi and don't have one? 1. limited availability of slips beamy enough to accommodate cats 2. no experience with cats, therefore they buy what they know 3. very few cats available in some regions of the planet 4. many of the good cats are made in France :-) 5. many of the cats available in the USA are ex-charter boats, and rather well, um . . . *used* 6. good quality cats generally cost about 20-50% more than equivalent-sized monohulls 7. cats, being a rarity in some areas, are perceived as difficult to resell need more? Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Jeff" wrote in message Finally admitted??? I finally admitted that cats don't point well??? And that's thats the best you've got? Bubbles has an uncanny knack for the obvious. Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Gary" wrote in message The fact that every record in ocean racing is being set by multihulls kinda pokes holes in everything you say. It doesn't matter how high you can point if you go twice as fast 10 degrees lower. Where I race, in light airs or big winds the first boat home is always a multihull. I raced a Snipe with a sailing club that for years had Snipe, MC-Scow, and Hobie 16 fleets. The general rule was that if the air was very light to dead calm, the cats would be started behind the monos. If the wind was 5 kts. or better, the cats were started first. I recall races in which the cats were started behind the other two fleets, only to have the wind freshen subsequently. The Hobies would then blast through the other two fleets and be back on their trailers before we made it back to the club dock. Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think this
is a discussion worth having. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Maxprop" wrote in message nk.net... "Capt. Rob" wrote in message Hmmmm....seems few others agree with this. Even Loco and Steve have said the higher pointing boat has the advantage. Only if the skipper has the knowledge and experience to utilize that advantage. The art of pointing involves a lot more than simply sailing as closely to the wind as possible. VMG across the widest possible range is what determines perfomance. This is the essense of sailing performance in fact. VMG has more to do with the skipper than the boat. Paul Elvstrom proved that for decades, sailing inferior boats against superior ones with inferior skippers, and beating them easily. Wish I'd written that! What a lofty goal, to be able to coin a phrase suggesting something blatantly obvious. For a boat to be considered high performance it must have excellent windward ability, be fast off the wind and be stable downwind. A PDQ 36 is only fast off the wind and not in light air. It MIGHT win a race...so long as the conditions were pretty specific to it's advantages. My C&C 32 clobbered a well sailed Gemini even though it was faster downwind. It is conceivable that some Geminis are owned and sailed by incompetent people. Upwind it was a dead duck, just like Jeff's boat would be. He already wrote that tacking is tedious! Get a clue...even a PDQ owner says you're wrong. The PDQ and other cats like her are fantastic cruising boats for some folks, but sailing enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of yachts. Reminds me of a guy who used to boast that his Cosworth Vega was in the same league as a Ferrari 248GTSi. and the rest who comprise the cruiser/racer-racer/cruiser section of the market. They're just more fun to sail, tack fast and can go upwind. And your 35s5, compared with similarly-sized cruising boats, is cramped, lightly constructed, uncomfortable in a seaway, and must be reefed early and often, not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at resale time. Everything's relative, Bubbles. Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens
Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of yachts. I've sailed the Sweden 39, J34c, J30 and J35. I have NOT sailed a Swan yet. The cost of the swan not withstanding, the 35s5 is in the same league for performance. In fact it was a hell of a lot nicer than the nice J34c. The Sweden had better components, but tiny bunks...amazingly small. A useless boat even for weekending if you're over 6 feet tall. The J35 was fast and fun...if only it had a nicer cabin. The 35s5 was simply one of the few boats that sailed like a raceboat while maintaining a good interior for occasional cruising. Saying it's not ideal for a 1000 mile voyage is rather silly since we didn't buy it for that. It's also a poor boat to fly over the Grand Canyon as well. I had a talk with Mark P. of Doyle sails this morning when I brought a sail in for an insurance estimate. He owned a 36.7 for a while and is a fan of the 35s5. We laughed at how we were once Beneteau bashers. He said, "Yeah, that was me until I sailed a 35s5 and then a 36.7." As luck would have it he built the sails on my boat and raced with her owned many years ago aboard a S33. Max, if you think the First 35s5 is lightly built, you should talk to some surveyors who've worked the boat. It's built with many weight saving featires, yet it's structural integrity is a match for most any production cruiser. Rather than just denying this off the cuff I suggest you look into it. Your impression on "lightly built" was also mine. Then I learned a bit about the 345, 32s5 and 35s5 and why they were standouts among the First series boats. RB 35s5 NY |
Thank You JEFF!!!
not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at
resale time. How so? We could have had a nice J34c for 8K more and she was worth it with a huge sail inventory. We looked at a Sweden 36 asking 66K, the Pretoreon (sp) for 60K, J35 for 55K....the First 35s5 was in the same price class. The baby Swan is more expensive by a mile, but the last few years have seen 35s5 prices actually go up along with the late model C&Cs and J boat cruising models. RB 35s5 NY |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Capt. JG" wrote in message Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think this is a discussion worth having. The fine art of pointing encompasses more than just having a boat that sails closely to the wind. When racing, the weather course made good will depend upon a number of factors. An adroit skipper can sail a higher CMG with a boat that doesn't sail as closely to the wind than a poorer skipper will with a boat that theoretically points higher. Keeping the boat on its feet (upright) is one factor. Another is maintaining sufficient speed to be able to periodically feather into the wind without slowing appreciably. This is where skill really shines. Sailing a high CMG often requires footing off periodically, especially in light air, to maintain boat speed to allow feathering and to prevent leeward slippage. Puffs can enable a boat to point higher as well, provided boat speed is maintained. Inexperienced skippers tend to pinch when following faster boats--the perception is that those boats are "pointing" higher than he, so he pinches in attempt to equal their pointing ability, effectively slowing himself down and losing ground to leeward. The direction in which the boat is aimed often has little to do with how well the boat is "pointing." There's more to it, but that's a good start. Max |
Thank You JEFF!!!
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message enthusiasts still prefer First series boats, J-Boats, Swans, Swedens Interesting that you include your boat with such a distinquished list of yachts. I've sailed the Sweden 39, J34c, J30 and J35. I have NOT sailed a Swan yet. The cost of the swan not withstanding, the 35s5 is in the same league for performance. *Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take the Swan any day. It will be heavier, but do far better than your Bendy Toy over the broad range of conditions. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that flat water and 15kts. is the standard by which "performance" is judged. In fact it was a hell of a lot nicer than the nice J34c. The Sweden had better components, but tiny bunks...amazingly small. A useless boat even for weekending if you're over 6 feet tall. The J35 was fast and fun...if only it had a nicer cabin. The 35s5 was simply one of the few boats that sailed like a raceboat while maintaining a good interior for occasional cruising. Saying it's not ideal for a 1000 mile voyage is rather silly since we didn't buy it for that. It's also a poor boat to fly over the Grand Canyon as well. I had a talk with Mark P. of Doyle sails this morning when I brought a sail in for an insurance estimate. He owned a 36.7 for a while and is a fan of the 35s5. We laughed at how we were once Beneteau bashers. He said, "Yeah, that was me until I sailed a 35s5 and then a 36.7." As luck would have it he built the sails on my boat and raced with her owned many years ago aboard a S33. Max, if you think the First 35s5 is lightly built, you should talk to some surveyors who've worked the boat. It's built with many weight saving featires, yet it's structural integrity is a match for most any production cruiser. You've been reading the Beneteau brochures, haven't ya. And believing them. Rather than just denying this off the cuff I suggest you look into it. Your impression on "lightly built" was also mine. Then I learned a bit about the 345, 32s5 and 35s5 and why they were standouts among the First series boats. I've spent more time on Beneteaus than you, Bubbles. But that's not necessarily significant--I state it only to explain that I'm far from ignorant w/r/t Beneteaus. A good friend used to sell them in Chicago. So I got the *Beneteau story*, and the *true story*. Fact is, they are really very good boats--better, I think, than Hunters and Catalinas in most respects. But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality. Sure, they bond their bulkheads 360 degrees to the hull *liner* and deck *liner*, but that's not quite the same as bonding them to the hull and deck. Beneteau's hull liners have been known to separate from the hull, requiring extensive repair costs often without effecting a valid repair. AND their bulkheads, fairly lightly constructed, have been known to buckle and fail when pushed to extremes that would probably not damage a stout cruiser, such as a Hallberg Rassey or a Cabo Rico, for example. However I think the most significant thing you've stated is that you used to bash Beneteaus. I recall that very well--you were without mercy. Now that you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5. Sounds like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me. Max |
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"Capt. Rob" wrote in message not to mention worth a fraction of the value of the cruising boats at resale time. How so? We could have had a nice J34c for 8K more and she was worth it with a huge sail inventory. We looked at a Sweden 36 asking 66K, the Pretoreon (sp) for 60K, J35 for 55K....the First 35s5 was in the same price class. A Sweden 36 or a Wauquiez Pretorian or a J35 or J34C for anywhere near what you paid for your Bendy would have to be beat-up junk or showing their age with minimal or outdated equipment. None of those boats could have come close to the condition of yours in that price range. You can't lie about this, Bubbles. I read yachtworld.com, too, and I know what those boats sell for in the same condition as yours. Fact is, that Pretorian, for example, won't depreciate at all at this point, rather it will appreciate if maintained well and kept up to par with upgrades. Beneteaus will depreciate long after high quality boats have bottomed out and are beginning to rise. The baby Swan is more expensive by a mile, but the last few years have seen 35s5 prices actually go up along with the late model C&Cs and J boat cruising models. LOL. Max |
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A Sweden 36 or a Wauquiez Pretorian or a J35 or J34C for anywhere near
what you paid for your Bendy would have to be beat-up junk or showing their age with minimal or outdated equipment. You know nothing about boat brokerage. I looked at and sailed the J 34C. It was in very nice shape, probably about as nice as the 35s5. The Pretorian was older and the only thing wrong with it was the sails. These boats often sell for many thousands of dollars less than asking. Half of the 35s5's on Yachtworld are priced just below 70K. 3 recent buyers I spoke to paid in the low to mid 60's for thiers. One person paid 71K for a near perfect example like mine, but he had enough sail inventory to make it worth it. 5 years ago 35s5's were selling in the mid 50's typically. Now they're higher. Do you know why? Do you know why the C&C 34+ shot up to near 100K after selling in the low 60s for years? The market responds to NEW boat costs as well as design trends. A C&C 34+ or 35s5 are examples of used designs that come close to matching new boat qualities and performance. That drives their prices up. As several people noted on the Beneteau lists, the latest First series boats even drove up the price of the older First 345. Don't even bother answering, Maxipad. You look at Yachtworld, while I actually sell boats....just closed a deal on a Freedom 35 a few weeks ago in fact and just took this beast in: http://hometown.aol.com/bobsprit/page4.html But a deal to sell a Carver 450 fell through...perfect for you! RB 35s5 NY |
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*Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take
the Swan any day. Wow...you really went out on a limb there! Next you'll tell us that you'd take Pam Anderson over Judy Dench. But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality. Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in any boat. Now that you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5. Sounds like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me. That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education about some of the Beneteau line. I don't have a high opinion of the latest Beneteau boats, especially the Oceanus series. Did you know that brokers are currently fighting with BeneteauUSA to make fit and finish improvements because quality has fallen badly? Go look at a new one...even a First series. Mark at Doyle loved the way his 36.7 sailed, but said the interior is crap compared to my boat. Of course we observed this ourselves. He himself laughed that he was a Beneteau basher...and then he sailed a first series boat. The combo of performance and cruisability for these waters is essentially unmatched anywhere near the price. Go ahead...try to match it. Doug couldn't. That's not to say the 35s5 is ideal for everyone. It's a handful at times and requires more work to sail than say a Catalina 40 or Island Packet 35. But that's what we wanted! All I can add is that we took Windward First out in some pretty heavy wind and chop and it was simply a blast! Reefed under main alone, she still sailed like a quick dinghy and aside from the howling wind, it was very relaxed and composed. This is a great boat for the LIS area. RB 35s5 NY |
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"Capt. Rob" wrote in message oups.com... heavy wind and chop... the howling wind... the LIS area. Now that's even funnier! |
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heavy wind and chop... the howling wind... the LIS area.
Now that's even funnier! You haven't been following the action. The sea trial of Windward First was in St. Petersburg, FL. and the tail end of the tropical storm was still evident. In fact it delayed my flight coming back that night. RB 35s5 NY |
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Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much. I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... "Capt. JG" wrote in message Max, what do you believe is important when attempting to point? I think this is a discussion worth having. The fine art of pointing encompasses more than just having a boat that sails closely to the wind. When racing, the weather course made good will depend upon a number of factors. An adroit skipper can sail a higher CMG with a boat that doesn't sail as closely to the wind than a poorer skipper will with a boat that theoretically points higher. Keeping the boat on its feet (upright) is one factor. Another is maintaining sufficient speed to be able to periodically feather into the wind without slowing appreciably. This is where skill really shines. Sailing a high CMG often requires footing off periodically, especially in light air, to maintain boat speed to allow feathering and to prevent leeward slippage. Puffs can enable a boat to point higher as well, provided boat speed is maintained. Inexperienced skippers tend to pinch when following faster boats--the perception is that those boats are "pointing" higher than he, so he pinches in attempt to equal their pointing ability, effectively slowing himself down and losing ground to leeward. The direction in which the boat is aimed often has little to do with how well the boat is "pointing." There's more to it, but that's a good start. Max |
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"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much. No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also keeps the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally. I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air. Feathering is the act of turning the boat into the wind (somewhat) during puffs and when moving well, but it is done only briefly, with a feel for the inevitable loss of speed that accompanies such a maneuver. At the first sign of the boat beginning to slow, the boat is pulled back to its original course. Learning to feather a boat to windward can make a big difference, especially when attempting to make a mark that is just above the rhumb line. Essentially it is the act of trading speed and momentum for pointing ability. Feathering is difficult in light air, and ill advised in drifter conditions. Max |
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"Capt. Rob" wrote in message oups.com... Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in any boat. RB 35s5-firmly inshore NY Bwahhahhahahhahhahhahhahahhahhahahhahhahahhahahhah hahahhahaha Don't blame the kid, bubbles. Are you going to paint your new boat yellow? Bwahhhahhahahhahhahahhahhahahhahahhahhahhahahhahah hahahhahahhaha John Cairns |
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"Capt. Rob" wrote in message *Performance* encompasses a lot more than just going fast. I'll take the Swan any day. Wow...you really went out on a limb there! Next you'll tell us that you'd take Pam Anderson over Judy Dench. You wouldn't??? But Chantiers Beneteau's claim that they are great offshore passagemakers is more advertising hype than reality. Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in any boat. Probably a good thing for both Thomas AND you. Now that you own one, there are few boats that can compare with your 35s5. Sounds like owner prejudice, plain and simple, to me. That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education about some of the Beneteau line. Education, or just buying into the advertising hype? I don't have a high opinion of the latest Beneteau boats, especially the Oceanus series. Did you know that brokers are currently fighting with BeneteauUSA to make fit and finish improvements because quality has fallen badly? I'd heard something about that. We inspected a 393 at a boat show last year and were disappointed in the interior fit and finish. Externally the boat seemed pretty typically Beneteau. Go look at a new one...even a First series. Mark at Doyle loved the way his 36.7 sailed, but said the interior is crap compared to my boat. Was your boat built in South Carolina or France? Could that be a factor? Of course we observed this ourselves. He himself laughed that he was a Beneteau basher...and then he sailed a first series boat. The combo of performance and cruisability for these waters is essentially unmatched anywhere near the price. Go ahead...try to match it. Doug couldn't. That's not to say the 35s5 is ideal for everyone. It's a handful at times and requires more work to sail than say a Catalina 40 or Island Packet 35. But that's what we wanted! All I can add is that we took Windward First out in some pretty heavy wind and chop and it was simply a blast! Reefed under main alone, she still sailed like a quick dinghy and aside from the howling wind, it was very relaxed and composed. This is a great boat for the LIS area. I happen to like Beneteaus in general. I've never been a Beneteau-basher. A close friend just bought a 445, which is an ex-charter boat, identical to the one we sailed in the BVI a couple of years back. While it isn't a real show-stopper in terms of quality, fit, and finish, it ain't bad. And it is fast and capacious. It meets his needs very nicely, and he and his wife and kids will love it, I'm sure. What I was objecting to in your diatribe was comparing your boat with boats obviously built to a higher standard and with greater integrity of hull and rig, designed for conditions that your boat was not. If you were honest you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a Wauquiez, Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more. Then again you didn't have to mortgage the Empire State Building to buy your boat. Everything is a trade-off in life. Boats are no exception. Beneteau builds a decent boat for the buck, better than Hunter or Catalina, IMO. Max |
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That IS a VERY valid point. In this case it came down to education
about some of the Beneteau line. Education, or just buying into the advertising hype? More like owner, reviewer, surveyor hype. Working for a full service yard means I can get the straight dope on a lot of boats. See below. but said the interior is crap compared to my boat. Was your boat built in South Carolina or France? Could that be a factor? Ahhh. Either you know something more than you're indicating or it's a lucky shot. 35s5 interiors were indeed made in overseas and to a much higher standard. I only wish the 36.7 had the same quality or even the bigger Firsts. happen to like Beneteaus in general. I've never been a Beneteau-basher. I'm sorry to say that I'm still a Benny basher of sorts. I think the newer boats have quality control issues and poorly fit interiors. Design wise they are excellent. It's the execution I'm less than thrilled with. I won't defend bad boats just because they carry the same label of MY boat. Beneteau should improve quality to match Hunter, who has made big improvements, even if you don't like their designs. If you were honest you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a Wauquiez, Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more. I don't know enough to to comment on the Wauquiez...have only looked at one, Sweden quality is variable and the cabin sucks for anyone over 6 feet. J boat is no where near the quality and problem free nature of the 35s5. J-Boat hulls are a disaster and wet decks are common. Don't even both citing racing as a cause. J34c's are know for problems and they are for the same market at the 35s5. But only two 35s5's were found (by me) to have deck problems and both were in small areas due to a mast drop and poor aftermarket hardware installation. As you know, the 35s5 hull is NOT cored. The rig is rod rigging and the chainplates are FAR superior to J-Boat's system on their boats of the late 80's and early 90s. Maxprop, I don't think you realize that Beneteau has had some above average boats score higher than others...among them the 345 and 35s5. A Swan is a true semi custome boat with a level of quality equalled by few...along with the price. Talking with Surveyors and yards teaches a person that the differences between a Catalina 350 and a Tartan 3500 are not a big as Tartan would hope to have you believe. The 35s5 is well regarded in Europe as an offshore racer/cruiser and has very few reported problems. The ex charter versions appear to have stood up well according to owners. As far as Hunter or Catalina...while it's popular to bash them as well, they're really not much different from the Tartan either when it comes to real world quality differences. Any of these boats can generally be sailed anywhere with some simple modifications and it's done all the time. RB 35s5 NY |
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Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel, but it may not
be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind, it seems like you would want some heel. I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say something about falling off before attempting to heading up. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Maxprop" wrote in message ink.net... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much. No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also keeps the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally. I'm not sure what you mean by feathering with respect to light air. Feathering is the act of turning the boat into the wind (somewhat) during puffs and when moving well, but it is done only briefly, with a feel for the inevitable loss of speed that accompanies such a maneuver. At the first sign of the boat beginning to slow, the boat is pulled back to its original course. Learning to feather a boat to windward can make a big difference, especially when attempting to make a mark that is just above the rhumb line. Essentially it is the act of trading speed and momentum for pointing ability. Feathering is difficult in light air, and ill advised in drifter conditions. Max |
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OzOne wrote in message ... On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:29:49 GMT, "Maxprop" scribbled thusly: "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what you're saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much. No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also keeps the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally. Rubbish! "Rubbish" hardly makes a valid statement. If you disagree, fine--but make your argument. Otherwise you're wasting our time and bandwidth. Max |
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"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel, I'm open to learning under what conditions this may be true. I can't conceive of it, however. If the boat is hard on the wind and there IS wind, a boat will heel, unless it's one of those redundant-hull thingys that Oz sails. but it may not be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind, it seems like you would want some heel. You'll always have *some* heel, but minimizing it is advantageous for a number of reasons. If this weren't true, why all the railmeat on maxi boats? Dinghies are generally best sailed, in all but very light winds, with a minimum of heel. Big boats are no different, unless they are classics with long overhangs which increase effective waterline when heeled. I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say something about falling off before attempting to heading up. I've always interpreted "pinching" as simply sailing too close to the wind. An example would be a boat with the ability to sail at, say, 30 degrees to the relative wind. Pinching would be to sail it along at 27 degrees, and footing would be at 35 degrees, plus or minus. Feathering is, according to Snipe guru Ted Wells, alternating between footing and pinching, but maintaining speed by spending only that amount of time pinching that won't denigrate boat speed significantly. It's an active process, with the skipper moving the helm quite a bit. There are some experienced skippers who prefer to find that sweet spot when hard on the wind, holding the helm very still. I can generally outpoint them, but they do seem to win their share of races. It's just another school of thought. Max |
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