Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message



but said the interior is crap compared to my boat.
Was your boat built in South Carolina or France? Could that be a
factor?


Ahhh. Either you know something more than you're indicating or it's a
lucky shot. 35s5 interiors were indeed made in overseas and to a much
higher standard. I only wish the 36.7 had the same quality or even the
bigger Firsts.

There have been some issues with the US-built Beneteaus. I wasn't aware
that the 35 was built in France, while the 36 was built here. That's why I
asked.


happen to like Beneteaus in general. I've never been a
Beneteau-basher.

I'm sorry to say that I'm still a Benny basher of sorts.

Coulda fooled me.

I think the
newer boats have quality control issues and poorly fit interiors.
Design wise they are excellent. It's the execution I'm less than
thrilled with. I won't defend bad boats just because they carry the
same label of MY boat. Beneteau should improve quality to match Hunter,
who has made big improvements, even if you don't like their designs.

Have to disagree there. Hunters are popular and ubiquitous here. Several
friends have bought them, and ALL have had numerous problems, both with the
engineering and the execution of the designs. To be fair, Hunter has been
reasonable and fair in repairing the problems. Sadly the reasons for the
problems are still present, and additional problems continue to emerge,
making these boats less-than-desirable in my opinion. Friends don't let
friends buy Hunters.

If you were honest
you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a
Wauquiez,
Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more.


I don't know enough to to comment on the Wauquiez...have only looked at
one, Sweden quality is variable and the cabin sucks for anyone over 6
feet. J boat is no where near the quality and problem free nature of
the 35s5. J-Boat hulls are a disaster and wet decks are common. Don't
even both citing racing as a cause. J34c's are know for problems and
they are for the same market at the 35s5. But only two 35s5's were
found (by me) to have deck problems and both were in small areas due to
a mast drop and poor aftermarket hardware installation. As you know,
the 35s5 hull is NOT cored. The rig is rod rigging and the chainplates
are FAR superior to J-Boat's system on their boats of the late 80's and
early 90s. Maxprop, I don't think you realize that Beneteau has had
some above average boats score higher than others...among them the 345
and 35s5. A Swan is a true semi custome boat with a level of quality
equalled by few...along with the price. Talking with Surveyors and
yards teaches a person that the differences between a Catalina 350 and
a Tartan 3500 are not a big as Tartan would hope to have you believe.
The 35s5 is well regarded in Europe as an offshore racer/cruiser and
has very few reported problems. The ex charter versions appear to have
stood up well according to owners.
As far as Hunter or Catalina...while it's popular to bash them as well,
they're really not much different from the Tartan either when it comes
to real world quality differences. Any of these boats can generally be
sailed anywhere with some simple modifications and it's done all the
time.

I'll still take the Swan. Or the Wauquiez, or the J. Most other sailors
would, too, especially if the condition and price were in the same range as
your boat. But I'm guessing that if the condition were equal to your boat,
the price on those others would be quite a bit higher. A good survey should
eliminate buying a wet deck or chainplate issues.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...

Hmm... well, I think there is a spot when there's zero heel,

I'm open to learning under what conditions this may be true. I can't
conceive of it, however. If the boat is hard on the wind and there IS
wind, a boat will heel, unless it's one of those redundant-hull thingys
that Oz sails.

Well, I thought you said that yourself... upwind, very light wind. I would
think that when there's a lull in light wind, the heel would go to zero, if
it wasn't nearly there already. I'm not sure how one would judge that, since
I don't have nor have I seen a tilt meter that accurate.

but it may not be sustainable upwind. Assuming no current and light wind,
it seems like you would want some heel.

You'll always have *some* heel, but minimizing it is advantageous for a
number of reasons. If this weren't true, why all the railmeat on maxi
boats? Dinghies are generally best sailed, in all but very light winds,
with a minimum of heel. Big boats are no different, unless they are
classics with long overhangs which increase effective waterline when
heeled.

I've always used the term heading up or pinching up. I guess you did say
something about falling off before attempting to heading up.

I've always interpreted "pinching" as simply sailing too close to the
wind. An example would be a boat with the ability to sail at, say, 30
degrees to the relative wind. Pinching would be to sail it along at 27
degrees, and footing would be at 35 degrees, plus or minus. Feathering
is, according to Snipe guru Ted Wells, alternating between footing and
pinching, but maintaining speed by spending only that amount of time
pinching that won't denigrate boat speed significantly. It's an active
process, with the skipper moving the helm quite a bit.

Ok... so feathering is zigzagging.

There are some experienced skippers who prefer to find that sweet spot
when hard on the wind, holding the helm very still. I can generally
outpoint them, but they do seem to win their share of races. It's just
another school of thought.

Yup... straight line sailing is faster.. turn = slowing.

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Several
friends have bought them, and ALL have had numerous problems, both with
the
engineering and the execution of the designs. To be fair, Hunter has
been
reasonable and fair in repairing the problems.


We have three new hunters at the yard and I'm not aware of any service
issues. I'm also selling a 1997 Hunter 43 and have access to it's
service history, which shows very little in the way of trouble. What
type of problems have you seen?

I'll still take the Swan. Or the Wauquiez, or the J. Most other
sailors
would, too, especially if the condition and price were in the same
range as
your boat.

I'd take the Swan, but not the Wauquez or J. We could have had either,
but the designs were not comparable to the 35s5. In the case of the
Wauquez we looked at one in CT in very good shape. Bunks were too
short, head was tiny, no swim platform. Teak decks may be nearing the
end of their life cycle on boats so fitted. Look at the prices on
Yachtworld...pretty much the same as the 35s5. The J 34C was in the
running for a while. We really liked sailing it, just as much as the
35s5 in fact. But the fit and finish below was inferior. No aft cabin,
no swim platform and another head designed for short people. J-boat
does seem to understand that people over 6 feet also need to sleep. We
could have bought the beautiful 34C, but the cabin was not even as well
done as our C&C 32.
The features we wanted are important to us as we'd tried them on other
boats and could see their practicality. Because of the failings of the
Wauqiez and Jboat, they can't compete with the 35s5 from a design
standpoint. I'd take the Swan I suppose, but are you so certain that
lofty build quality would still make a boat the right fit for everyone?

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and
similarly-sized crew.

Not true.


OzOne wrote:
Boats, even large yachts are often stacked to windward in light
conditions, particularly now that the plastic sails no longer need
heel to induce some sort of shape.
It produces better gust response, and helmmovement in the gust among
other things


Yep. The boat accelerates much better and if it's one of those
gawd-awful days with chop & light air, it can go thru the lumpy parts
better.

It doesn't take a heavy crew, even.

OTOH there are times when I like a lot of heel, like just before a tack ;)

DSK

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Yup... straight line sailing is faster.. turn = slowing.


OzOne wrote:
Yup, it's faster, but letting the boat roll up in the gusts and
shooting just a tad gains a whole lot of ground to windward.
Straight line an Etchells and you'll get murdered!


The way I think of it, in windward sailing you are either gaining speed
or gaining height. THe ideal would be to go fast & high, but usually as
you put the boat closer & closer to the wind, it loses drive and begins
to slow. The key is to do it gently and to know how to flatten &
super-trim the sails so as to produce a long "hang" time. Then you also
have to know the point at which the boat's underwater foils lose enough
effectiveness that you're making more leeway than gaining ground to
windward.

Also, anticipate waves & lulls so as not to get caught high & slow.

If you're going to get into a pinching contest, go into it with speed!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

The way I think of it, in windward sailing you are either gaining speed

or gaining height.


I've never seen such obvious stuff posted. It's almost amazing that
Trawler boy is posting this as if Loco doesn't know it already, let
alone Ozzy. Hey, Trawler boy, when you feather a heavy disp. full keel
cruiser what is the momentum factor vs. wetted surface.
Gee, lemmee think! Uh DUH!

Could you people actually post ANYTHING not available in ANY child's
sailing book?

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

I've never seen such obvious stuff posted.

Pay Attention Rob... you'll learn somthing!

It's almost amazing that
Trawler boy is posting this as if Loco doesn't know it already, let
alone Ozzy. Hey, Trawler boy, when you feather a heavy disp. full keel
cruiser what is the momentum factor vs. wetted surface.
Gee, lemmee think! Uh DUH!

You don't "feather" a heavy or moderate displacement cruiser Bob. Pinching
does little... it's better to foot off and gain power. Momentum prevents
stalling between puffs in very light air and in those conditions at 2.5 kts
intial speed... I can coast for couple of hundred yards easy.


Could you people actually post ANYTHING not available in ANY child's
sailing book?

It's for your benefit... Pay Attention! It should come in handy for your
new definitive book on sailing you claim to be writing. What's the title
going to be... here are a few suggestions.

"Watch Bob Sail... V-r-r-o-o-o-m"

"Engine Hour Meters... Placement and Adjustment"

"Chrome Anchors... when your boat needs to Shine"

"The Backyard Surveyor's Boat Bible"

"The Etiquette of Modern Dockside Living"

"Boats... How to present a Sow's Ear as a Silk Purse"

CM

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Gee, lemmee think! Uh DUH!


You don't "feather" a heavy or moderate displacement cruiser Bob.


Wow. Talk about the sarcasm going over Mooron's head! Way to go,
Mooron. You're right on target! Can't wait for the next lesson. Oh, and
ANY sailboat can be feathered in certain conditions. We've already been
down this road and I posted links to prove it. Look up "Feather" in a
sailing book from Barney Goes Sailing!

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

Wow. Talk about the sarcasm going over Mooron's head! Way to go,
Mooron. You're right on target! Can't wait for the next lesson. Oh, and
ANY sailboat can be feathered in certain conditions. We've already been
down this road and I posted links to prove it. Look up "Feather" in a
sailing book from Barney Goes Sailing!

Don't wet your pampers Bob.... I didn't make it to the bait store this
morning.

I never said a full keeler can't be feathered Bob... you are suffering
selective interpretation. I said it's not done since there is little
advantage in it.

I'll wait for your definitive book on sailing where you will suggest to
engage the auxiliary to "feather"...

Bob's new book title?... " AC, why you shouldn't sail in hot weather"

CM

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

You don't "feather" a heavy or moderate displacement cruiser Bob.


Above is what Mooron said...but he never said it...or didn't mean
it...or...something about Pampers....
He sure knows boats!


RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Capt. Rob wrote:
The way I think of it, in windward sailing you are either gaining speed

or gaining height.


I've never seen such obvious stuff posted. It's almost amazing that
Trawler boy is posting this as if Loco doesn't know it already, let
alone Ozzy. Hey, Trawler boy, when you feather a heavy disp. full keel
cruiser what is the momentum factor vs. wetted surface.
Gee, lemmee think! Uh DUH!

Could you people actually post ANYTHING not available in ANY child's
sailing book?

RB
35s5
NY

Nice!

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
You don't "feather" a heavy or moderate displacement cruiser Bob.


Above is what Mooron said...but he never said it...or didn't mean

Yeah Bob.... let me 'splain it fer Ya easy like... "don't" not "can't"...
can you clue in on those two important words?

it...or...something about Pampers....
He sure knows boats!

I know how to sail Bob..... knowing boats is what desk side enthusiasts do.

CM

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Yeah Gary.... it's typical Bobspeak when a subject matter goes over his
head... like anything about actual sailing.

CM

"Gary" wrote in message
news:yZ1ef.502291$1i.232648@pd7tw2no...
Capt. Rob wrote:
The way I think of it, in windward sailing you are either gaining speed

or gaining height.


I've never seen such obvious stuff posted. It's almost amazing that
Trawler boy is posting this as if Loco doesn't know it already, let
alone Ozzy. Hey, Trawler boy, when you feather a heavy disp. full keel
cruiser what is the momentum factor vs. wetted surface.
Gee, lemmee think! Uh DUH!

Could you people actually post ANYTHING not available in ANY child's
sailing book?

RB
35s5
NY

Nice!

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Honestly, we won't take Thomas into dangerous conditions offshore in
any boat.


Probably a good thing for both Thomas AND you.


For the Boobster, walking down the dock constitutes a 'hazardous
voyage.' And he'll post pictures to prove it!


Maxprop wrote:
What I was objecting to in your diatribe was comparing your boat with boats
obviously built to a higher standard and with greater integrity of hull and
rig, designed for conditions that your boat was not. If you were honest
you'd have to admit that your boat is not in the same league as a Wauquiez,
Sweden, J-Boat, Swan, or many others costing far more.

There are lots of great boats out there. Then there's a fair amount of
not-so-great, and a small percentage of crap. Very often the perception
of the boat is based on publicity & advertising rather than any
realistic consideration of the boat itself.

... Then again you
didn't have to mortgage the Empire State Building to buy your boat.
Everything is a trade-off in life. Boats are no exception. Beneteau builds
a decent boat for the buck, better than Hunter or Catalina, IMO.


They generally cost more, too.

The bottom line- Bubbles claims he bought a boat, paying more than 5X
what Scotty paid... and his boat is only slightly bigger, *maybe*
slightly faster (if Bubbles takes sailing lessons)... will be used less,
and that closer to it's home slip.

WTF has he got to brag about?

DSK

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

When I'm teaching, I've noticed that students, especially those relatively
new to sailing, get very focused on the boat alone, rather than what's
around them... typically ignoring the small waves, lulls and puffs. I try to
get them to look away from what's happening on the boat and toward the
environment they're in. I think that helps, because then I can give them
help during tacks.. e.g., not tacking between chop but rather at the top if
possible.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Yup... straight line sailing is faster.. turn = slowing.


OzOne wrote:
Yup, it's faster, but letting the boat roll up in the gusts and
shooting just a tad gains a whole lot of ground to windward.
Straight line an Etchells and you'll get murdered!


The way I think of it, in windward sailing you are either gaining speed or
gaining height. THe ideal would be to go fast & high, but usually as you
put the boat closer & closer to the wind, it loses drive and begins to
slow. The key is to do it gently and to know how to flatten & super-trim
the sails so as to produce a long "hang" time. Then you also have to know
the point at which the boat's underwater foils lose enough effectiveness
that you're making more leeway than gaining ground to windward.

Also, anticipate waves & lulls so as not to get caught high & slow.

If you're going to get into a pinching contest, go into it with speed!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"DSK" wrote in message

The bottom line- Bubbles claims he bought a boat, paying more than 5X what
Scotty paid... and his boat is only slightly bigger, *maybe* slightly
faster (if Bubbles takes sailing lessons)... will be used less, and that
closer to it's home slip.

All Valid Facts......

WTF has he got to brag about?

Nothing... he does it to generate sailing discussion. Look at the topic and
subject matter on this group since he has returned!
Politics... next to nothing.... yet he is single-handedly handling a myraid
of attacks on his prepostorous claims.

He even requested I join in the assault to offer some sport. Now he's
reconsidering the logic of that request!

Mr. Crantz has been breakin' Bob's Balls with his race results!

Gentlemen... grab a fresh wet Mackeral and let's start slapping Bob again!
:-)

I'll just keep slapping him with this lil'Smelt....

CM

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Funny... I didn't realize that Etchells have an inboard head.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:32:56 -0800, "Capt. JG"
scribbled thusly:

When I'm teaching, I've noticed that students, especially those relatively
new to sailing, get very focused on the boat alone, rather than what's
around them... typically ignoring the small waves, lulls and puffs. I try
to
get them to look away from what's happening on the boat and toward the
environment they're in. I think that helps, because then I can give them
help during tacks.. e.g., not tacking between chop but rather at the top
if
possible.

When sailing the Etchells, we have a policy of one head inside the
boat, two out.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Mention the word 'head' and Ganz is all over it . . .

CN

"Capt. JG" wrote in message ...
| Funny... I didn't realize that Etchells have an inboard head.
|
| --
| "j" ganz @@
| www.sailnow.com
|
| OzOne wrote in message ...
| On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:32:56 -0800, "Capt. JG"
| scribbled thusly:
|
| When I'm teaching, I've noticed that students, especially those relatively
| new to sailing, get very focused on the boat alone, rather than what's
| around them... typically ignoring the small waves, lulls and puffs. I try
| to
| get them to look away from what's happening on the boat and toward the
| environment they're in. I think that helps, because then I can give them
| help during tacks.. e.g., not tacking between chop but rather at the top
| if
| possible.
|
| When sailing the Etchells, we have a policy of one head inside the
| boat, two out.
|
|
| Oz1...of the 3 twins.
|
| I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.
|
|

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

You mean Native American. Indian isn't politically correct.

Interesting that Neal is *still* obsessed with me. I guess he just can't get
over his infatuation.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:06:21 -0500, Capt. Neal®
scribbled thusly:

Mention the word 'head' and Ganz is all over it . . .

CN

It's the Indian food.


Oz1...of the 3 twins.

I welcome you to crackerbox palace,We've been expecting you.

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Interesting that Neal is *still* obsessed with me. I guess he just
can't get
over his infatuation.


You should be flattered. For a while Neal was sending me pics of John
Candy in drag and claiming it was Loco's mother. Really disturbing
stuff.

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Disturbing, but funny.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Interesting that Neal is *still* obsessed with me. I guess he just
can't get
over his infatuation.


You should be flattered. For a while Neal was sending me pics of John
Candy in drag and claiming it was Loco's mother. Really disturbing
stuff.

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...


Well, I thought you said that yourself... upwind, very light wind. I would
think that when there's a lull in light wind, the heel would go to zero,
if it wasn't nearly there already. I'm not sure how one would judge that,
since I don't have nor have I seen a tilt meter that accurate.

I'm not talking about momentary zero heel, rather zero heel when moving
along hard on the wind. Only rail ballast can effect zero heel, or even
windward heel, in such cases. When racing dinghies in drifter conditons,
most do slightly better if artifically heeled to minimize wetted surface
area. So in those conditions when you might expect zero heel, some heel is
preferable.

Ok... so feathering is zigzagging.

Done properly its a very smooth procedure, and really doesn't result in a
zigzag CMG, rather a slight serpentine. If you're zigzagging, you're
oversteering or moving the helm too abruptly.

Yup... straight line sailing is faster.. turn = slowing.

I'd agree that it's faster, but one can sail higher on the wind by
feathering. It's helpful in making a mark that you might be slightly below
and want to avoid having to tack at the last minute. To continue your
argument, one can always go faster by footing than by sailing as high as
possible. I should have made the comment that while some of those who don't
touch the helm do win, so do those who steer constantly, feathering into the
wind. The ability and experience of the skipper has more to do with winning
than any given technique on one point of sail. But you know that.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:14:06 -0800, "Capt. JG"
scribbled thusly:

Yup... straight line sailing is faster.. turn = slowing.

Yup, it's faster, but letting the boat roll up in the gusts and
shooting just a tad gains a whole lot of ground to windward.
Straight line an Etchells and you'll get murdered!

You said that better than I did. Thanks.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...
The way I think of it, in windward sailing you are either gaining speed

or gaining height.


I've never seen such obvious stuff posted.

This is like saying to someone who just sold his boat, "Hey, if I'd know you
were selling it, I'd have bought it."

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. JG" wrote in message


When I'm teaching, I've noticed that students, especially those relatively
new to sailing, get very focused on the boat alone, rather than what's
around them... typically ignoring the small waves, lulls and puffs.

This is typical of newcomers. They haven't sailed enough to know how the
boat responds to various inputs to the helm and various sail trims, so they
watch the boat, not the environment. With experience they learn to sense
the boat and watch other racers and the water and wind.


Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message
.net...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...


Well, I thought you said that yourself... upwind, very light wind. I
would think that when there's a lull in light wind, the heel would go to
zero, if it wasn't nearly there already. I'm not sure how one would judge
that, since I don't have nor have I seen a tilt meter that accurate.

I'm not talking about momentary zero heel, rather zero heel when moving
along hard on the wind. Only rail ballast can effect zero heel, or even
windward heel, in such cases. When racing dinghies in drifter conditons,
most do slightly better if artifically heeled to minimize wetted surface
area. So in those conditions when you might expect zero heel, some heel
is preferable.

I know you're not... I've never heard of anyone getting zero heel when hard
into the wind. On the lake where I also teach, I have students sit on the
low side to get a feel for the difference in light wind.

Ok... so feathering is zigzagging.

Done properly its a very smooth procedure, and really doesn't result in a
zigzag CMG, rather a slight serpentine. If you're zigzagging, you're
oversteering or moving the helm too abruptly.

Well, call it whatever you like, it's not a straight course.

Yup... straight line sailing is faster.. turn = slowing.

I'd agree that it's faster, but one can sail higher on the wind by
feathering. It's helpful in making a mark that you might be slightly
below and want to avoid having to tack at the last minute. To continue
your argument, one can always go faster by footing than by sailing as high
as possible. I should have made the comment that while some of those who
don't touch the helm do win, so do those who steer constantly, feathering
into the wind. The ability and experience of the skipper has more to do
with winning than any given technique on one point of sail. But you know
that.

Sure, I get what you're saying. If one were sailing on a beam reach, for
example, a straight course would be faster than constantly turning. For up
wind, it's a different story.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

We have three new hunters at the yard and I'm not aware of any service
issues.

Well duh. Doncha think service issues tend to show up after a boat has been
in its owner's hands for a while?

I'm also selling a 1997 Hunter 43 and have access to it's
service history, which shows very little in the way of trouble. What
type of problems have you seen?

Hunter 410--keel pulling loose from the hull, despite tightening the keel
bolts. (Hunter's fix: "slap some flexible caulk in there.") Numerous
electrical problems. Hunter 320--this boat has hatches (the sort that
typically are found on a relatively level deck) attached to near-vertical
house sides, and they've cracked and leaked, even after being replaced
twice. Electrical problems. Poor design of the various cubby holes in the
cockpit, the weep-hole drains of which don't seem to drain the water that
accumulates in them. Older Hunters--softening of the *pine* mast step,
which is encased in glass and sits on a reinforced hull member, but doesn't
stay water-tights and eventually softens and allows the base of the mast to
sag into the wood. This has been a problem with older Catalinas as well.
And wet decks are almost ubiquitous on older Hunters and Catalina, and even
on some newer ones. Also, those numerous fixed deck windows on older
Hunters generally leak after about 7 years in the sun and rain. One 37.5
Hunter we inspected in a driving rain literally had a waterfall cascading
down the face of the power panel. Nice. The hull liner was almost
completely black with mildew.


I'd take the Swan, but not the Wauquez or J. We could have had either,
but the designs were not comparable to the 35s5. In the case of the
Wauquez we looked at one in CT in very good shape. Bunks were too
short, head was tiny, no swim platform.

A swim platform is a necessity for a sailboat to be worthwhile?

Teak decks may be nearing the
end of their life cycle on boats so fitted.

Or, if maintained properly, they might be just fine. Best non-skid
available.

Look at the prices on
Yachtworld...

Hmmm. I thought you were criticizing me for reading yachtworld.com. Now
you are suggesting I do so. Which is it?

pretty much the same as the 35s5. The J 34C was in the
running for a while. We really liked sailing it, just as much as the
35s5 in fact. But the fit and finish below was inferior. No aft cabin,
no swim platform and another head designed for short people. J-boat
does seem to understand that people over 6 feet also need to sleep. We
could have bought the beautiful 34C, but the cabin was not even as well
done as our C&C 32.
The features we wanted are important to us as we'd tried them on other
boats and could see their practicality. Because of the failings of the
Wauqiez and Jboat, they can't compete with the 35s5 from a design
standpoint. I'd take the Swan I suppose, but are you so certain that
lofty build quality would still make a boat the right fit for everyone?

I don't know about everyone, but it would for me.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

OzOne wrote in message ...
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 04:29:49 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


OzOne wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 22:29:49 GMT, "Maxprop"
scribbled thusly:


"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
Keeping a boat on it's feet vs. excessive heeling... that's what
you're
saying right? Because zero heel may indicate pinching too much.

No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper and
similarly-sized crew. But limiting the heel to a practical minimum will
generally allow better helm control and less leeway slippage. It also
keeps
the sailplan presented to the wind more optimally.

Rubbish!

"Rubbish" hardly makes a valid statement. If you disagree, fine--but make
your argument. Otherwise you're wasting our time and bandwidth.


Max


Boats, even large yachts are often stacked to windward in light
conditions, particularly now that the plastic sails no longer need
heel to induce some sort of shape.
It produces better gust response, and helmmovement in the gust among
other things

You seem to have read my post selectively. I commented that a heavy crew
can rail ballast a boat to zero heel. But under normal, non-drifter
conditions, when hard on the wind with a normal crew complement, a boat will
heel past the vertical to leeward. These days dinghies are also heeled to
windward for the same reason you cite. Some believe that with a low boom,
such as on a Finn, a high pressure zone builds between the boat and the foot
of the sail when stacked to windward, augmenting the Bernoulli effect and
thus the power generated by the sail. It hasn't been proven, but Finn
sailors must believe it because you see them do it when racing in very light
conditions. And they have been for decades.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"DSK" wrote in message

No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper
and
similarly-sized crew.

Not true.

Explanation of your response, please.

Yep. The boat accelerates much better and if it's one of those gawd-awful
days with chop & light air, it can go thru the lumpy parts better.

I agree that it does, but what is your explanation for this effect?

It doesn't take a heavy crew, even.

Not in light air. That's what I said originally.

OTOH there are times when I like a lot of heel, like just before a tack
;)

For roll-tacking?

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Captain Joe Redcloud©" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 07:24:28 -0500, DSK wrote:


OTOH there are times when I like a lot of heel, like just before a dump
;)

DSK

The only time your boat heels is when the holding tank is full.

That's why he "tacks"--to get the holding tank on the high side.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"DSK" wrote in message

The bottom line- Bubbles claims he bought a boat, paying more than 5X what
Scotty paid... and his boat is only slightly bigger, *maybe* slightly
faster (if Bubbles takes sailing lessons)... will be used less, and that
closer to it's home slip.

WTF has he got to brag about?

Not to worry--he'll concoct something.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt.Mooron" wrote in message

"DSK" wrote in message

The bottom line- Bubbles claims he bought a boat, paying more than 5X
what Scotty paid... and his boat is only slightly bigger, *maybe*
slightly faster (if Bubbles takes sailing lessons)... will be used less,
and that closer to it's home slip.

All Valid Facts......

WTF has he got to brag about?

Nothing... he does it to generate sailing discussion. Look at the topic
and subject matter on this group since he has returned!
Politics... next to nothing.... yet he is single-handedly handling a
myraid of attacks on his prepostorous claims.

He has waaaay too much time on his hands. But dont' forget that Bubbles
instigated many, if not all, of the past political discussions.


He even requested I join in the assault to offer some sport. Now he's
reconsidering the logic of that request!

Mr. Crantz has been breakin' Bob's Balls with his race results!

True again. But his posted results have been selective. A thorough search
will probably disclose some significant 35s5 victories, too, and over
supposedly faster boats.

Bubbles does a commendable job of trolling. In that regard he is on par
with Neal--the old version. And to his credit, he utilizes posting
techniques in such a manner as to sound supremely arrogant and insolent.
Unfortunate as it may be, threads just don't seem to propagate on polite
humility.

Max

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

I'd take the Swan, but not the Wauquez or J. We could have had either,
but the designs were not comparable to the 35s5. In the case of the
Wauquez we looked at one in CT in very good shape. Bunks were too
short, head was tiny, no swim platform.


A swim platform is a necessity for a sailboat to be worthwhile?

A feature you want is "worthwhile" and being able to sleep comfortably
on a 60-80K boat is not a "tall" order, but tough to find if you're
tall. The J-Boat had sleeping room, but no swim platform and no aft
cabin. Great boat for a couple, but less so for a family of 3 or 4.

Or, if maintained properly, they might be just fine. Best non-skid
available.

25-30 years is the typical lifespan for teak decks. Some go longer.
Teak decks can also hide expensive problems. I love them...but don't
want them on an older boat.
I'd have to try a Swan to know if it's a good boat for me. I don't
accept any boat by virtue of it's name. I looked at some pretty "good"
boats that were huge let-downs because of poor designs. The Tartan 34
MK2 and Briistol 35.5 were near the top of my list....and they I got
aboard them.
We looked at the Beneteau 35s5 and I had little hope of liking it. Life
can be funny. The 35s5 had the features we wanted and light air
ability. We then looked into the specific quality points and
history....we had found our boat. An added bonus...there are few
around. We have plenty of Bristols and Tartans, even Swans and a single
Nordic 30. But the 35s5 is rare enough here that I won't see it on the
road too often so to speak. Of course the main thing were the test
sails and the 35s5 was a blast, or as someone else wrote, "a screamer."
Anyway...I think you understand my choices as the group also does in
reality. But measured non-trolling posts like this one only drives them
deeper into a frenzy.

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Maxprop" wrote in message

Bubbles does a commendable job of trolling. In that regard he is on par
with Neal--the old version.

He's a one man squad tackling poster & puppet alike.

And to his credit, he utilizes posting
techniques in such a manner as to sound supremely arrogant and insolent.

I've never comsidered arrogance as a character flaw and insolance
predisposes that ranking is in question. :-)

Unfortunate as it may be, threads just don't seem to propagate on polite
humility.

The best way to kill this group is a continuous stream of polite sailing
discussions.

I've considered this group one of the best comedy venues online. I was often
rendered to tears of laughter when Ganz was losing it! One of my favourites
is when some poor soul inadvertently wanders in and posts a diatribe prior
to reading the group thoroughly.

Nonetheless... when it comes to sailing knowledge.... this is one of the
best spots for information... if you "pose your question in the form of an
answer"!

CM

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

The best way to kill this group is a continuous stream of polite
sailing
discussions.


Mooron, were you here when I drove Dr. Armpit into threats that he'd
drive here and kill me and most of the people on my block? He
practically went off the deep end, then we never heard from him again.
He'd been a regular for quite a while. We have some borderline cases
here. Doug, Loco and Jeff take all of this a bit to seriously and I
think I've shaved a few years off their frustrated little lives. Loco
has mentioned again and again how "he'll never forget how I treated him
when he first joined the group!" I actually think I drove Doug to buy a
trawler as he feared buying a sailboat that I'd rip apart. Jeff is
ready to use a chainsaw on his PeePeeQ and is upset that I told
everyone who don't own a 35s5 to kill themselves. I really only meant
Jeff. BTW, did you know that we sailed to Block Island last year and
never went to Port Jeff? The pics I posted we clearly of Mystic and no
one knew, not even the ones who claimed they've sailed here. Hmmmm.

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

The thing to remember is that without the "straight guys" most comedy
routines here would die at the first post.

I was here when Dr. Armpit went over the edge... that was frickin'
hilarious!

One of my favourites was "Lil Stevie Sumner"... Oh and Ganzy after the
Bush won the election! He was snappin' like a rapid poodle at everything!

CM

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
The best way to kill this group is a continuous stream of polite
sailing
discussions.


Mooron, were you here when I drove Dr. Armpit into threats that he'd
drive here and kill me and most of the people on my block? He
practically went off the deep end, then we never heard from him again.
He'd been a regular for quite a while. We have some borderline cases
here. Doug, Loco and Jeff take all of this a bit to seriously and I
think I've shaved a few years off their frustrated little lives. Loco
has mentioned again and again how "he'll never forget how I treated him
when he first joined the group!" I actually think I drove Doug to buy a
trawler as he feared buying a sailboat that I'd rip apart. Jeff is
ready to use a chainsaw on his PeePeeQ and is upset that I told
everyone who don't own a 35s5 to kill themselves. I really only meant
Jeff. BTW, did you know that we sailed to Block Island last year and
never went to Port Jeff? The pics I posted we clearly of Mystic and no
one knew, not even the ones who claimed they've sailed here. Hmmmm.

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

One of my favourites was "Lil Stevie Sumner"... Oh and Ganzy after
the
Bush won the election! He was snappin' like a rapid poodle at
everything!


Hey, I was pretty upset when Bush won too. Ironic thing is that now
most people who voted for him feel the same way. Do you know that the
previous owner of the 35s5 asked me (two minutes after meeting) if I
was anti-Bush. When I said "Of course" he said he'd never sell his boat
to a Bush supporter. Scary part...I think he was serious.

RB
35s5
NY

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Maxprop wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message


No. There is no such thing as zero heel--a boat will always heel when
beating to windward unless it's a small dinghy with a 300lb. skipper
and
similarly-sized crew.

Not true.


Explanation of your response, please.


The boat heels in response to
1- the amount of wind
2- the way the sails are trimmed

If there's a LOT of wind, then yes the boat will heel... even with no
sails up at all. In normal sailing winds, it is quite possible to trim
for 5 degrees windward heel. This is not new, it was fairly common
advice... yet very rarely followed... back in the 1960s.

One thing that is new, and that I have not tried, is Oz1's advice that
fancy plastic sails don't need to be heeled to take shape in very light air.



Yep. The boat accelerates much better and if it's one of those gawd-awful
days with chop & light air, it can go thru the lumpy parts better.


I agree that it does, but what is your explanation for this effect?


???

Why do I have to explain it?



It doesn't take a heavy crew, even.


Not in light air. That's what I said originally.


Nor in moderate air... if you're in control of the boat and not vice-versa.


OTOH there are times when I like a lot of heel, like just before a tack
;)


For roll-tacking?


Bingo.

DSK

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

Capt.Mooron wrote:
The thing to remember is that without the "straight guys" most comedy
routines here would die at the first post.


Yeah, I was thinking just that yesterday. In fact, it was the
straight men that made the big bucks, while the buffoons were
considered replaceable.

Thank You JEFF!!!
 

"Capt. Rob" wrote
..... Because of the failings of the
Wauqiez and Jboat, they can't compete with the 35s5 from a design
standpoint.

???

That's probably true if you're a moron.

... I'd take the Swan I suppose, but are you so certain that
lofty build quality would still make a boat the right fit for everyone?


It's not "just" build quality (whatever you take that to be). Swans are
always among the prettiest, most comfortable, and fastest boats in
production.

Maxprop wrote:
I don't know about everyone, but it would for me.


How about one of the new NYYC 42s? Sweet boat, except for the name of
course.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King