"DSK" wrote in message

| Heck, a Soverel 33 will move at 4 or 5 knots in almost no wind at all,
| if well sailed. Maybe it's just making a ripple IYHO? Just a few
| weekends ago I watched a Kirie Elite 30-something (looked to be about 35
| feet) and a C&C 34+ tearing around the racecourse in winds of about 3
| knots and chop.

The hell you say..... 4 or 5 kts in no wind!!! Okay Doug.... put down the
Jack Daniels and back away from the bar!! ;-)
I have no experience with the Kirie Elite but I have been on a C&C 34 in
Vancouver. There is no way a C&C 34 can be described as "tearing around" at
3 knots... even with no chop!

| Yeah, there's that. But when the boat reaches some significant percent
| of hull speed, it's going to making waves not ripples.

Okay let's explore that point.... down wind with the wave train at let's
average it about a 2ft wave height and a 6 ft between crests. The boat is
doing lets say half an average hull speed [6kts]... on a dead downwind
run....so we'll call it 3 kts speed. The wave train is moving much faster
than that but can hardly be noticed on the 4 feet of freeboard. Now you mean
to tell me that you can see a bow wave in those conditions? Okay... maybe
when you come down onto a passing wave train.... but that's a momentary
situation.

To form a bow wave... I believe you need to be "pushing" water... not
parting it.

Anyhow... the floor is yours... I'll just stroll over to the bottle of Jack
Daniels here ;-)

CM

"Capt. Mooron" wrote

but I have been on a C&C 34 in
Vancouver. There is no way a C&C 34 can be described as "tearing around"
at
3 knots... even with no chop!

you don't know which year/model Doug was talking about, do ya?

Scotty

"Scott Vernon" wrote in message

| you don't know which year/model Doug was talking about, do ya?

Oh Crap... there I go again! I keep forgetting about that!

CM

"DSK" wrote
| Heck, a Soverel 33 will move at 4 or 5 knots in almost no wind at all,
| if well sailed. Maybe it's just making a ripple IYHO? Just a few
| weekends ago I watched a Kirie Elite 30-something (looked to be about 35
| feet) and a C&C 34+ tearing around the racecourse in winds of about 3
| knots and chop.


Capt. Mooron wrote:
The hell you say..... 4 or 5 kts in no wind!!! Okay Doug.... put down the
Jack Daniels and back away from the bar!! ;-)

No booze involved, not even American beer. The Soverel 33 is renowned as
a light-air speedster though, probably not a fair comparison. They make
a wake you can hear from 1/2 mile off on days when the wind is barely
enough to disturb cigarette smoke.


I have no experience with the Kirie Elite but I have been on a C&C 34 in
Vancouver. There is no way a C&C 34 can be described as "tearing around" at
3 knots... even with no chop!

It wasn't a C&C 34, it was the 34/36+ (or it might have been the 34/36
XL, not sure). Like this

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1193723

The boat rates around 90 PHRF, in other words more than a minute per
mile faster than your boat.


| Yeah, there's that. But when the boat reaches some significant percent
| of hull speed, it's going to making waves not ripples.

Okay let's explore that point.... down wind with the wave train at let's
average it about a 2ft wave height and a 6 ft between crests. The boat is
doing lets say half an average hull speed [6kts]... on a dead downwind
run....so we'll call it 3 kts speed.

Huh??? That's not at all how it works. The wave-making resistance of a
hull increases with her speed in proportion to her Froude number, which
is a fairly complex derivative.

But let's make it simple... a hull with a 30' waterline has a "hull
speed" of 7.3 knots... meaning that at that speed, the crests of her
wave train will be 30' apart and she will require tremendous amounts of
increased applied power to go faster. At roughly 2/3 that speed, or 4.4
knots, she will be making waves of half her waterline length.

They may not be very high but the bow wave will certainly have a curl or
breaking crest, the stern wave probably will too (although it's a well
regarded feature of "fast" boats to leave low & clean stern waves).

Now bump the speed down a notch or two... only ripples? Sorry, you need
to pay closer attention... stop sneaking beer into the classroom and put
down that girly magazine! Anyway, depending on the hull of course,
there's no way a displacement boat is going to move at 1/2 or even 1/3
of her hull speed, when wave-making resistance is definitely a factor,
and make "only ripples." Small waves... OK but not ripples.

Jack Daniels? You can have my share... I've been hiding a bottle of
single malt in the desk...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote in message
| No booze involved, not even American beer. The Soverel 33 is renowned as
| a light-air speedster though, probably not a fair comparison. They make
| a wake you can hear from 1/2 mile off on days when the wind is barely
| enough to disturb cigarette smoke.

Yeah Doug...and I can drink a keg of beer and not fall down.


| It wasn't a C&C 34, it was the 34/36+ (or it might have been the 34/36
| XL, not sure). Like this

Mumble Mumble...Gr-r-r-r....damn models and yearly changes... I swear they
just do it to **** me off!
|
|
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...oat_id=1193723
|
| The boat rates around 90 PHRF, in other words more than a minute per
| mile faster than your boat.

Oddly enough I don't see a bow wave on that vessel either.


| Huh??? That's not at all how it works. The wave-making resistance of a
| hull increases with her speed in proportion to her Froude number, which
| is a fairly complex derivative.

That's not going to overcome friction/displacement and allow for a speed
faster than the wind pushing you is it? Even on plane I doubt a boat will
exceed wind speed. That would border on the perpetual motion theory.

|
| But let's make it simple... a hull with a 30' waterline has a "hull
| speed" of 7.3 knots... meaning that at that speed, the crests of her
| wave train will be 30' apart and she will require tremendous amounts of
| increased applied power to go faster. At roughly 2/3 that speed, or 4.4
| knots, she will be making waves of half her waterline length.

Now that's odd..... hull speed is a figure of the hull's shape and wetted
surface. In other words the limit the boat can theoretically make at optimum
speed without beginning to push water. After that 'speed' has been attained
the force required to surpass it requires exponentially more force. At least
that's how it was explained to me in my youth.

| They may not be very high but the bow wave will certainly have a curl or
| breaking crest, the stern wave probably will too (although it's a well
| regarded feature of "fast" boats to leave low & clean stern waves).

Obviously we have a difference in interpretation of a wave here Doug. I
consider a six inch 'bow wave' as nothing more than a ripple. A bow wave is
when you have water curling off the bow. Upwind it's far easier to effect
this than downwind. I'm certain you've experienced the feeling of a heavy
boat cleaving a large wave on a downwind run and sending tons of water
aside.

|
| Now bump the speed down a notch or two... only ripples? Sorry, you need
| to pay closer attention... stop sneaking beer into the classroom and put
| down that girly magazine! Anyway, depending on the hull of course,
| there's no way a displacement boat is going to move at 1/2 or even 1/3
| of her hull speed, when wave-making resistance is definitely a factor,
| and make "only ripples." Small waves... OK but not ripples.

I can move Overproof downwind easily at half her hull speed in 5 knots of
wind and only see ripples... not waves.

| Jack Daniels? You can have my share... I've been hiding a bottle of
| single malt in the desk...

I found a bottle of cheap champagne in my cooler..... rum on Friday! ;-)

CM

In article , Capt. Mooron
wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message
| No booze involved, not even American beer. The Soverel 33 is renowned as
| a light-air speedster though, probably not a fair comparison. They make
| a wake you can hear from 1/2 mile off on days when the wind is barely
| enough to disturb cigarette smoke.

Yeah Doug...and I can drink a keg of beer and not fall down.

If it's American beer I can well believe that. Real question is why
anyone would bother.....

PDW

You're trying to tell me you don't like Coors????

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Capt. Mooron
wrote:

"DSK" wrote in message
| No booze involved, not even American beer. The Soverel 33 is renowned
as
| a light-air speedster though, probably not a fair comparison. They
make
| a wake you can hear from 1/2 mile off on days when the wind is barely
| enough to disturb cigarette smoke.

Yeah Doug...and I can drink a keg of beer and not fall down.

If it's American beer I can well believe that. Real question is why
anyone would bother.....

PDW

Jonathan Ganz wrote:
You're trying to tell me you don't like Coors????

I'm not trying, I am telling you.... I do not like Coors.

Although I have attended some shooting events they used to sponsor,
their beer is not anything I'd choose.

DSK

DSK wrote:
Jonathan Ganz wrote:

You're trying to tell me you don't like Coors????

I'm not trying, I am telling you.... I do not like Coors.

Although I have attended some shooting events they used to sponsor,
their beer is not anything I'd choose.

Why not? I'd shoot at Coors cans as readily as any other beer cans.
What difference does it make?


--
//-Walt
//
// http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040514/matson.gif

Well Doug, that's pretty unAmercian. :-)

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Jonathan Ganz wrote:
You're trying to tell me you don't like Coors????

I'm not trying, I am telling you.... I do not like Coors.

Although I have attended some shooting events they used to sponsor,
their beer is not anything I'd choose.

DSK